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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:03 pm 
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Inanna wrote:
Tolkien can get a pass for many things (no one DYING, for one), but we don’t need to give him one for the “chosen one” storyline, because it actually ISN’T.


*cough*Boromir*cough*

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:20 pm 
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I was just thinking that!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:43 pm 
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And, of course, Théoden (and Halbarad and a bunch of other less important characters at the Pelennor Fields, Helms Deep and elsewhere). And of course, that is only in LOTR. Lots of people die in first and second age stories, not to mention the second most important character in The Hobbit (and his nephews).

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:00 pm 
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Smaug had nephews? :shock:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:07 pm 
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V, while that is accurate, I don't see the connection to the Chosen One trope. Explain?
Jude wrote:
Smaug had nephews? :shock:
Probably? Dragons lay eggs, right? There's probably more than one in a clutch, so he probably has siblings.

Do we know of any female dragons?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:34 pm 
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It's not. It is connected to the statement "Tolkien can get a pass for many things (no one DYING, for one)" and then the response "*cough*Boromir*cough*." Boromir died. Théoden died. Lots of people died in the various battles in LOTR, and even more died in first two ages. Thorin, Fili and Kili (and Smaug and his unknown nephews Faug and Kaug) all die in the Hobbit. Nothing to do with the so-called Chosen One trope.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:43 pm 
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Oh, OK. Never mind, that was a before-coffee question.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:19 pm 
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elengil wrote:
Inanna wrote:
Tolkien can get a pass for many things (no one DYING, for one), but we don’t need to give him one for the “chosen one” storyline, because it actually ISN’T.


*cough*Boromir*cough*
Sean Bean's characters don't count.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:45 pm 
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Dave_LF wrote:
elengil wrote:
Inanna wrote:
Tolkien can get a pass for many things (no one DYING, for one), but we don’t need to give him one for the “chosen one” storyline, because it actually ISN’T.


*cough*Boromir*cough*
Sean Bean's characters don't count.


All Beans Matter!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:48 pm 
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(Unclear post removed)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:10 pm 
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I don't know whether any of the characters in Tolkien technically meet the definition of the 'chosen one' tropes. I may be simplifying the trope too much, but here is how I see them:

Aragorn wasn't special in that he was "the one" - he was from a long line of anyone who could have been 'the one' had the events happened in their lifetimes. I think it's missing the point to assume that the events happening necessarily require them to happen in the lifetime of specific people, rather than just picking the best suited people who are around during said events.

That is, Aragorn being Aragorn didn't trigger any of the events of Lord of the Rings, more he was simply the latest heir during the time that the events happened. It may just as well have been Arathorn who did them. Or Aragorn's progeny. (though the whole "you can't marry my daughter until you become king" may negate that to some degree) Any of Isildur's line could have commanded the Armies of the Dead, to let them fulfill their vows.

Similar to Bilbo and Frodo. Bilbo was arguably a 'chosen' one, literally chosen by Gandalf, to be part of the Dwarven party for reasons I don't think were ever really clearly defined for us (or maybe I missed it?) Even so, he wasn't a part of prophecy or the only one who could have done what he did, I think it was simply the trigger for events that followed, but not having anything to do specifically with who was involved. If that makes sense. Even the Ring wasn't important until later (that is, even Tolkien didn't know it was important at the time, and Gandalf only finds out later.)

Frodo again wasn't a chosen one either, anymore than Sméagol was a chosen one, or Sam. Frodo's only real push at the beginning was "Hey, uh, yeah so this horribly cursed Ring, y'know that ONE ring (the chosen ring? :P )... yeah, might want to get that out of the Shire before horrible things happen." So he went to Rivendel, but that was all the further he had originally planned to go. He volunteered to go further, but he didn't have to, he could have left it to the 'greater peoples' to decide what to do.

Yeah, I'll become repetitive so I'll skip to the end - none of the people involved in LotRs were chosen to be special for some task that they and only they could do - rather they were the ones who were around and willing to do what needed to be done during the time that the events happened. Others could have stepped forward or taken up the burdens.

There were also lots of deaths, although the one Ha, psyche! with Gandalf might get a bit tropy, but for the most part dead characters stay dead, events aren't foretold, and no one has a strange birthmark (Elora Danan), or extraordinary unknown parentage (Luke Skywalker), or gets used as a pawn by others/warring factions (Katniss Everdeen).

/2 cents

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:03 pm 
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I agree with most of what you said, except for Bilbo and Frodo:

Quote:
“Frodo: 'It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance.'
Gandalf: 'Pity? It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.' Frodo: 'I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.'
Gandalf: 'So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides that of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.”


What I get from this quote is that they were special, or at least "specially chosen" for reasons that were not immediately obvious to everyone else.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:06 pm 
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Jude wrote:
I agree with most of what you said, except for Bilbo and Frodo:

Quote:
“Frodo: 'It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance.'
Gandalf: 'Pity? It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.' Frodo: 'I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.'
Gandalf: 'So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides that of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.”


What I get from this quote is that they were special, or at least "specially chosen" for reasons that were not immediately obvious to everyone else.


Not to sound flippant here but probably half the people on earth believe everything happens per divine will, I don't really think that falls into the 'chosen one' trope, however. It sounds more like religious belief overtones. Though I do see what you're getting at.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:27 pm 
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elengil wrote:
Dave_LF wrote:
Quote:
Sean Bean's characters don't count.


All Beans Matter!

So what you're saying is... you're a Bean counter?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:36 pm 
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Dave_LF wrote:
elengil wrote:
Quote:
Sean Bean's characters don't count.


All Beans Matter!

So what you're saying is... you're a Bean counter?


:doh:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:23 pm 
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:rofl:


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 11:49 pm 
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Has anyone read Martha Wells? She’s coming up in my amazon recommendations as “hard sci-fi”. Prim doesn’t have her on her goodreads bookshelf.

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