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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Anduril wrote:
Not gonna see this film after the last one made the original series, let alone the prequels, utterly pointless


In fairness, the prequels were utterly pointless at launch! ;)

Do yourself a favour Anduril. Leave your preconceptions at home and go have a blast in an original Star Wars movie. It's a rare enough experience.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:44 pm 
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Di, those crystal foxes are now my favorite fantastic beast of all times.

One of the reasons I enjoyed this movie, and TFA, so much more than the first six is that those are very pointedly made for young males. Here, we had adult women in position of power, exerting this power with quiet dignity and courage. We DON'T have inane banter and posturing, but we do have characters genuinely devoted to each other. Rey fits with the recent crop of "strong = violent" heroines, but Rose is a step up, capable of using force when necessary, but that's not her main point. I even liked Solo in TFA, when he only irritated me in the original series.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:58 pm 
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not something I would recommend
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Alatar wrote:
Do yourself a favour Anduril. Leave your preconceptions at home and go have a blast in an original Star Wars movie. It's a rare enough experience.


Or just admit that Star Wars were always dumb, silly little movies and if you're not interested in these new ones then you've probably grown past the whole goofy thing. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:19 pm 
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Alatar wrote:
Do yourself a favour Anduril. Leave your preconceptions at home and go have a blast in an original Star Wars movie. It's a rare enough experience.

Rare? There's going to be one every year, quite possibly for the rest of our lives. ;) Why did we ever need more than three Star Wars movies? It's hard not to get burnout when the marketing, hype, and even backlash are on an endless short cycle. Even the prequels at least were spaced out over a decade so we got some break from it.

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Naturally, the fanboys are now claiming he was forced by studio pressure to issue an apology. I despair of my fellow geeks sometimes.

As Anduril said, "forced" is probably too strong a word. But it is not common for people in film to openly criticize a project they worked on and not outlandish to think he might walk it back primarily to keep good relations in the industry. Maybe he's also come to accept Luke's role more with time too though - it could be a mix of both.

Anyway, I don't think the Ars Technica article really addresses the movie's fundamental narrative issues. I don't even mean "plot holes" per se (though some are pretty big) so much as an incredibly messy and unfocused structure. There's a major subplot that goes nowhere and the "fifth act" on the salt planet really wasn't necessary - Luke could have shown up earlier and to have things go on so long after Laura Dern's sacrifice kind of dilutes its effect. Also it basically resets the Star Wars universe to rebels vs. empire while talking a big game about letting go of the past. It's a pity, because I do think there's a potential for a good or great movie mostly around Rey and Kylo with some more trimming and revision on the script.

The originals certainly have their faults and I'm not as attached to them as I used to be, though I'll still put ESB down as one of the great blockbusters. But I don't think they're the same in kind as the problems with the prequels and this movie (no, I'm not saying TLJ is as bad as the prequels). Most Marvel movies have tighter plotting, and I don't even like Marvel all that much.


Last edited by kzer_za on Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:13 pm 
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kzer_za wrote:
Rare? There's going to be one every year, quite possibly for the rest of our lives.


Maybe going forward, but so far there's been 9 movies in 40 years and six of those were in the first 38 years ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:37 pm 
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I even liked Solo in TFA, when he only irritated me in the original series.


I know Ford is embarrassed by the early SW movies. I remember a quote from an interview he did a long time ago, when the interviewer said he liked the movies, and wanted to know why Ford didn't. He said something about "that's not your 20 year old face up there on the screen!"

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:24 am 
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Alatar wrote:
Do yourself a favour Anduril. Leave your preconceptions at home and go have a blast in an original Star Wars movie. It's a rare enough experience.


"The burned hand teaches best. After that, advice about fire goes to the heart." -- Gandalf


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:48 pm 
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So did anyone see Solo? I heard the opening weekend wasn't great and I'm wondering how the true fans feel about it.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 2:33 am 
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I just got back from seeing it. I don't consider myself a true fan but I have thought the three new movies so far have been a lot of fun, and I saw it with someone who is a true fan, and we were both in agreement - that was not a good movie.

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Last edited by yovargas on Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 1:55 pm 
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The New Yorker review is titled Portrait of the Pilot as a Young Jock.

Sent from a tiny phone keyboard via Tapatalk - typos inevitable.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 10:47 pm 
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Hoping to see it tomorrow night in the Flix Brewhouse. That way if its not good I can get drunk and not care!

That said, friends of mine put it in the same league as Rogue One, which I loved.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:49 am 
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The Last Jedi has now been out for nearly a year, and the fan backlash isn’t showing any sign of slowing down. Star Wars Youtubers are still producing videos criticising the film on a regular basis, and their comment sections are still full of other fans agreeing with them.

Even as one of the fans disappointed in the film, I wasn’t sure at the time if this mattered. Studios don’t make money off hardcore fans, they make money off mass viewership. Still, from today’s perspective, I have to wonder if the Star Wars fan community is just so big and so dedicated that its attitude does have a significant impact on the profitability of the franchise, either because many ticket sales are from serious fans seeing the films multiple times in theatres or much of the additional revenue is from fans buying the associated merchandise. Solo is the first-ever Star Wars film to be a commercial disappointment, making back less than $400 million on a $275 million budget (a loss once you consider marketing costs), and Disney is slowing down the release of new Star Wars films. If they bought Lucasfilm hoping it could challenge Marvel, it hasn’t worked out.

Going back to The Last Jedi, it’s noteworthy that the film was rated a very respectable 91% on Rottentomatoes by critics and a very mediocre 45% by audiences. It remains by far the worst-received Star Wars films by audiences, beating out the first two prequels with relative ease (critic/fan rating listed in order):

ANH (IV): 93/96
ESB (V): 95/97
RotJ (VI): 80/94
TPM (I): 55/59
AotC (II): 66/56
RotS (III): 79/65
TFA (VII): 93/87
RO: 85/86
TLJ (VIII): 91/45
S: 70/64

There’s a lot of very interesting insights for film-makers in that list. We’re now a little over a year out from Episode IX – will Disney attempt to reconcile with disappointed fans? Or will it continue to attempt to take the franchise in a new direction and gain new ones?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:35 am 
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Just goes to show, there's lies, damn lies, and then statistics. Last Jedi more unpopular than Phantom Menace? I was there for both. Trust me, there's no comparison. the difference is that the people who are writing reviews on Rotten Tomatoes were kids when the Prequels came out. They are adults (sort of) now. IMHO of course.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:26 pm 
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Since you mentioned it...
Star Wars: The Last Jedi' Negative Buzz Amplified by Russian Trolls, Study Finds

This is not entirely accurate, as only a small number of trolls were traced to Russian troll farms. But...

Quote:
The paper analyzes in depth the negative online reaction, which is split into three different camps: those with a political agenda, trolls and what Bay calls "real fantagonists," which he defines as genuine Star Wars fans disappointed in the movie. His findings are fascinating; "Overall, 50.9% of those tweeting negatively [about the movie] was likely politically motivated or not even human," he writes, noting that only 21.9% of tweets analyzed about the movie had been negative in the first place.

"A number of these users appear to be Russian trolls," Bay writes of the negative tweets.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:20 pm 
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It's impossible to compare the audience response to a modern movie to one from 20 or more years ago. The phenomenon of internet outrage culture amplifies things so much. I'm sure if midichlorians had happened during the age of twitter and youtube, and Rylo Ken during the 90s, those audience numbers would look wildly different.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:32 pm 
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Here are the audience scores from imdb, which is much harder to troll than Rotten Tomatoes. The scores are far more reasonable there, with E1 & 2 solidly at the bottom where they belong.


Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace 6.5
Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones 6.6
Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith 7.6
Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope 8.6
Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back 8.8
Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi 8.3
Star Wars: Episode VI - The Force Awakens 8.0
Star Wars: Episode VII - The Last Jedi 7.2
Rogue One 7.8
Solo 7.0

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Last edited by yovargas on Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Rogue One :love:

No, it wasn't perfect, but it was the best one since the original three!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:21 pm 
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I’m with you on that, Elengil. Focusing on new characters gave them freedom in storytelling and some freedom to be more original (the heroes are not all good people, for example). And I will always love the ending of the main story. The bit leading into ANH was cool, I guess, but that wasn’t the real ending.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:33 am 
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On this topic, Lucasfilm has just confirmed that the proposed Boba Fett spinoff film has been cancelled, in line with the Disney strategy of scaling back new Star Wars releases. There’s been a lot of discussion about how Marvel can manage to turn out two new films a year and keep making more and more money, while Lucasfilm can’t. Part of it might be that the Marvel films are all quite different, and you don’t need to watch them all to follow the overall plot. Disney seemed to be going for something like this with the spin-offs, but they don’t seem to have been able to make it work.

Alatar wrote:
Just goes to show, there's lies, damn lies, and then statistics. Last Jedi more unpopular than Phantom Menace? I was there for both. Trust me, there's no comparison. the difference is that the people who are writing reviews on Rotten Tomatoes were kids when the Prequels came out. They are adults (sort of) now. IMHO of course.


I was a regular poster on TheForce.net around the time Episodes II and III came out. At the time, the fandom community was divided between ‘Bashers’ who disliked the Prequels (I was in that camp) and ‘Gushers’ who liked them. Outside the community, the reactions to the first two Prequels was mostly negative, but there were still a hardcore group of fans who really liked (and still like) them. Opposition to TLJ seems to have united most of the fandom, but among non-fans, the reaction has been the opposite – most casual viewers like the film.

Frelga wrote:
Since you mentioned it...
Star Wars: The Last Jedi' Negative Buzz Amplified by Russian Trolls, Study Finds

This is not entirely accurate, as only a small number of trolls were traced to Russian troll farms. But...

Quote:
The paper analyzes in depth the negative online reaction, which is split into three different camps: those with a political agenda, trolls and what Bay calls "real fantagonists," which he defines as genuine Star Wars fans disappointed in the movie. His findings are fascinating; "Overall, 50.9% of those tweeting negatively [about the movie] was likely politically motivated or not even human," he writes, noting that only 21.9% of tweets analyzed about the movie had been negative in the first place.

"A number of these users appear to be Russian trolls," Bay writes of the negative tweets.


Part of the anti-TLJ reaction has certainly been from trolls. But it would be unwise for Lucasfilm to brush off all the criticism of TLJ as being trolling (or, as some within the studio seem to have implied, racism and sexism).

As yov points out, there’s obvious differences with how films are treated by the internet now than how they were in 1999 or 2002. But this doesn’t seem to have troubled Marvel. And other franchises, like Harry Potter (the new Fantastic Beasts) and Star Trek, have met with fair even if unexceptional reactions, but don’t seem to have antagonised the fanbase in the same way TLJ has done.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Túrin Turambar wrote:
Opposition to TLJ seems to have united most of the fandom, but among non-fans, the reaction has been the opposite – most casual viewers like the film.


That's because the people who oppose it consider themselves the real fans and people who like it are obviously just "casual viewers", cause obviously "real fans" know better. ;)

I'm a longtime fan of the movies, books, games etc. I loved it. So there ya go.

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