All Talked Out - Debates Over - Who Won?

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:45 pm

When McCain stumbled over pronouncing the name "Ahmedinajad," Obama could be heard quietly saying, "That's a tough one." He does have good manners, and I think that does make a difference.

I'm not saying McCain was impolite; I think his not looking at Obama last night was due to nervousness, and his condescension was clearly scripted, not natural to the man.

Post by **Cerin** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:50 pm

I'd be interested in hearing what Jim Lehrer had to say about that. He gave up fairly quickly in trying to have the men address each other, I thought because it was clear that McCain was determined not to address Obama (nor even look at him).

edit spelling

Post by **River** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:02 pm

I listened to part of the debate on NPR. So I missed the fidgeting/not looking. I did not miss the condescension, and to me it came across as political posturing. Really annoying. In fact, posturing of any kind annoys me. It seems counter-productive.

Not that they were trying to produce anything last night. But it makes me wonder about what will happen on the job.

Also, McCain was wrong when he said Obama had never been to Afghanistan. Obama never got a chance to correct him though. I mention it because as soon as McCain said "Senator Obama has never been to Afghanistan" a memory alarm went off in my head. And it turns out I'm not hallucinating, either: Obama went to Afghanistan in July. And we had some lively discussions about that here in Lasto, IIRC.

I'm not going to go so far as to say McCain lied. Maybe he just screwed up. But he was wrong to say that and if he doesn't get called out on it he ought to. He did it in the context of trying to paint Obama as naive. In fact, he called Obama naive so often that I'm thinking at the the next debate, anyone playing the drinking game should do a shot when McCain says "naive".

Post by **sauronsfinger** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:29 pm

Re: drinking game..... does a cup of tea count?

Post by **River** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:37 pm

Only if it's in a shot glass.

Post by **Inanna** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:53 pm

I disagree, cup of tea always counts. Anytime. Anywhere.

Post by **Holbytla** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:05 pm

Only if it is Long Island Iced Tea.

I think we over analyze everything. I had to stop myself from doing just that last night. I trust my instincts more than my head anyway, but aside from major clear cut philosophies there is always a lot of politicking going on and that confuses things.

Gut instincts and grains of salts help wash debates down.

Post by **Whistler** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:07 pm

This is somewhat off topic, but it's enlightening as a look at what debates used to be in the pre-mass media age––and sadly, as a look at how communication skills have degenerated over the decades. Some of the views expressed are repugnant, but it is impossible not to admire the oratorical gymnastics on display.

Here are the full transcripts of the Lincoln/Douglas Illinois senatorial debates of 1858:

http://www.nps.gov/archive/liho/debate1.htm

Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:11 pm

That was definitely a high point in American politics, Whistler.

Post by **Whistler** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:12 pm

After reading, you can only think: There are no more great men.

Post by **yovargas** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:34 pm

MCCAIN: How about a spending freeze on everything but defense, veteran affairs and entitlement programs.

LEHRER: Spending freeze?

MCCAIN: I think we ought to seriously consider with the exceptions the caring of veterans national defense and several other vital issues.

I find this very disturbing. If for nothing else what it says about McCain's priorities: military spending is always necessary, everything else is optional. Those are very very very very much not my priorities.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:39 pm

That made me boggle, too, yov. That and his absolute insistence that making any plan to leave Iraq meant we had "lost"—that we have to stay until some kind of victory is achieved, a victory he's not been willing to define. To someone my age, the words "peace with honor" come chillingly to mind. In taking this stand McCain is opposing not just Obama's ideas but Maliki's and those of the Bush administration. I think he underestimates the degree to which the apparent success of some parts of the surge has reconciled Americans to the war.

Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:40 pm

yov, I suspect that a lot of people reacted that way, and not just people who were already committed to Obama. In fact, I would out on a limb so far as to speculate that it was primarily that exchange that caused the polls to show that a majority of independents and swing voters swung towards Obama.

Post by **yovargas** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:40 pm

I wouldn't be surprised. It really is a pretty extreme view if you think about it, nothing moderate or centrist about it. I know in practical terms it's not like something like that is ever really going to happen but, like I said, it says so much about his priorities. If Palin hadn't already swung me firmly away from the McCain ticket, I think that might've done the trick for this independent.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:53 pm

Interestingly, the Obama campaign put out a statement today saying that Palin was a fine debater in Alaska and that they expected she would be formidable on Thursday. I've heard that she did actually do well in debates in her home state, and the Obama campaign has been studying the tapes.

Of course, this is also the expectations game again: they're trying to raise the bar for Palin's debate performance at least an inch or two off the ground.

Post by **Cerin** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:56 pm

I saw a portion of her debating from a link on TORC, and the difference between that and what we've seen recently is astounding. It can barely be accounted for; I don't know what these 'advisors' have done to the poor woman. Not that I'm for giving advice to the other side, but they would have been far better off leaving her alone to be herself, than stuffing her head so full of soundbytes that she can no longer utter a meaningful sentence.

Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:54 pm

Nielsen estimate: 57 million people watched debate

That's an awful lot of people, for a Friday night. I haven't found anything yet to compare this figure with the viewership for other debates however.

One thing that stood out for me was McCain's insistence that "everyone knew" that Pakistan was a "failed state" when Musharraf took over. Funny, I didn't know that. I thought it was an elected democracy that he took over in a coup. In fact, that it was it was. And yet McCain heaped scorn on Obama for not knowing that fact, which wasn't even true. What do others think about that?

Post by **Cerin** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:08 am

I thought it was effective in making Obama seem ignorant, like some dumb kid (which is the way McCain treated him the whole night). Most people won't know whether it was true or not, they'd just take the expert's word.

Post by **Frelga** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:11 am

McCain said a lot of things which, to put it extremely generously, were not accurate.

The one that nearly had me explode was his line about "freedom fighters" who supported "us" in Afghanistan against the Soviets. Presumably he meant the freedom fighters now known as Taliban, and led by that renowned freedom fighter Osama Bin Laden. I really, really hope I misunderstood.

Edited for clarity.

Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:11 am

I think you are right. But I think (I would have to watch it again to be sure) that Obama bears some of the blame for not pushing back harder on that point, and turning it around to make McCain look like the one who didn't know what he was talking about (as was in fact the case). But maybe that would not have been possible.