It is currently Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:51 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 958 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45 ... 48  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:19 pm 
Offline
Wrong within normal parameters
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:59 am
Posts: 4346
Location: The other side of Michigan
My statement was about Republicans in power rather than the voters. Most of the GOP voters are as sane and reasonable as anyone else, but enough of them would rather vote for monsters than for the other party that this is what we get. It's true that Moore lost, but only just barely. And he's the sort of caricature you might invent when posing a hypothetical "would you consider voting for a Democrat if the alternative was this guy" scenario. And Trump, about whom you could say much the same thing, did not lose. :neutral:

About the other thing, do you know of any recent "dump cop" movies? I don't watch enough anymore to be sure. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the trope has gone out of fashion.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:55 pm 
Offline
Meanwhile...
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 13353
Location: Out on the banks
Dave_LF wrote:
Most of the GOP voters are as sane and reasonable as anyone else, but enough of them would rather vote for monsters than for the other party that this is what we get. It's true that Moore lost, but only just barely. And he's the sort of caricature you might invent when posing a hypothetical "would you consider voting for a Democrat if the alternative was this guy" scenario. And Trump, about whom you could say much the same thing, did not lose. :neutral:


Not only that, but Moore won the primary, despite even Trump backing Strange. It's not like it was any surprise, who he was. Alabama Republicans get no kudos for staying home so that the monster they wanted could win without them taking moral responsibility.

Quote:
About the other thing, do you know of any recent "dump cop" movies? I don't watch enough anymore to be sure. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the trope has gone out of fashion.


I don't remember any recent cop movies that weren't a comedy. Hm. I did always find it interesting that no cop could solve a crime until he was pulled off the case, and every qualified secret agent had to be lured from retirement.

The trope of rogue against evil establishment is basically the entire MCU Captain America story, and that ought to tell us something.

_________________
Image
‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:07 pm 
Offline
Wrong within normal parameters
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:59 am
Posts: 4346
Location: The other side of Michigan
Frelga wrote:
The trope of rogue against evil establishment is basically the entire MCU Captain America story, and that ought to tell us something.

Something about our own origin myths. These are not correct though; the American Revolution was conducted quite "lawfully" in the D&D sense of the word, with a formal military under a formal command structure, written legal arguments and statements drawn up by actual lawyers, and so forth. The leaders worked very hard to maintain their image as decent, law-abiding citizens who'd been forced against their will to defy an authority that had betrayed its own legitimacy. This is in contrast to how things unfolded shortly thereafter in France, and the French Revolution's very different aftermath is at least party attributable to the fact that it was conducted chaotically.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:14 pm 
Offline
Waiting...
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 10915
Lets do make note of the other side of the coin - legal doesn’t always mean “right”. And we do admire people who Defy the law & the current admin power for what is “right”.

_________________
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude (as Merry)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:51 am 
Offline
Meanwhile...
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 13353
Location: Out on the banks
Inanna, as V once said, I don't disagree with you. ;)

Dave_LF wrote:
This is in contrast to how things unfolded shortly thereafter in France, and the French Revolution's very different aftermath is at least party attributable to the fact that it was conducted chaotically.


It's only possible to conduct lawful good resistance against a lawful good or neutral authority. I learned on my trip to Boston that the English troops were under strict orders not to shoot at unarmed civilians (contrast with American police), which is why the Tea Party was carried out by unarmed people.

(OT - the Tea Party museum is awesome. A lot of fun plus you get to watch the faces of your friends freeze when you tell them you went there, until you explain that no, the original tea party.)

_________________
Image
‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:42 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 33155
I'm surprised that no one has commented on our President's lovely "shithole countries" remark, speaking about Haiti and countries in Africa. I really thought I had reached the point that I could not be shocked or offended by anything that he said or did. I was wrong.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:51 pm 
Offline
Meanwhile...
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 13353
Location: Out on the banks
What's there to say? He was elected because of his capacity to make comments like that, not despite it.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

_________________
Image
‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:17 pm 
Offline
not something I would recommend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:13 pm
Posts: 13050
Location: Florida
I'm surprised you are still able to find any of it surprising. Sadly, I think a lot of America, myself included, has gotten numb to it all. And it's only year 1.

_________________
everything happens so much

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:52 pm 
Offline
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 38980
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
I’m not numb, but I lack the energy to comment on every incident like this one. I agree that this was a new low. I hope that he may be forced from office before Year 3, or perhaps might resign if Democrats retake the House or both houses. It wouldn’t save him from prosecution, but he might prefer that to impeachment and conviction. And on second thought, Pence (or whoever was still around to succeed him) would probably pardon him.

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:00 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 33155
I will never be numb. I will forever be the cynical idealist.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:08 pm 
Offline
bioalchemist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:08 am
Posts: 9911
Location: the dry land
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
I'm surprised that no one has commented on our President's lovely "shithole countries" remark, speaking about Haiti and countries in Africa. I really thought I had reached the point that I could not be shocked or offended by anything that he said or did. I was wrong.

I've been at a loss for words. Both at the comment and the contortions some are making to excuse it.

On a more bemusing note, I'm 1/4 Norwegian (both my parents are 1/4 Norwegian). At the time my Norwegian ancestors immigrated, []i]Norway[/i] (you know, Trump's preferred source of immigrants) was a "shithole country". That's why they left and did things like homestead in the US. The discovery and exploitation of North Sea oil turned things around.

_________________
When you can do nothing what can you do?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:53 pm 
Offline
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 38980
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
Six of my eight great-grandparents immigrated from Scandinavia in the 1890’s. (Norway was still part of Sweden, but four were from Norway.) There was no opportunity there. Farms had to be divided between all sons, so many were too small to support a family. They knew there was lots of land in Minnesota and Iowa, and their kids moved west from there.

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:54 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 33155
Immigrants have come to the U.S. throughout history because their opportunities in the home countries were limited.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:20 am 
Offline
Meanwhile...
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 13353
Location: Out on the banks
This is a good point, by Wesley Lowery of WaPo.

Quote:
Who cares what media outlets are deciding about the word “shithole”?
How about some media reporting on what they continue to decide about the word “racist”?

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
I will never be numb. I will forever be the cynical idealist.

I'm a pragmatist. I believe that there will be hell to pay later for complacency now.

I'm also at a loss for what I can do. :(

_________________
Image
‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:53 am 
Offline
bioalchemist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:08 am
Posts: 9911
Location: the dry land
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Immigrants have come to the U.S. throughout history because their opportunities in the home countries were limited.

Indeed. Packing up and moving to a place where you don't speak the language or know the customs with the intention of re-making your life is not a decision taken lightly.

_________________
When you can do nothing what can you do?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:09 pm 
Offline
Hobbit
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:45 pm
Posts: 5048
Location: Missouri
And some were transportees. Prisoners sent here against their will. I found a couple of those during genealogy research. One from Britain and one from France.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:51 pm 
Offline
not something I would recommend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:13 pm
Posts: 13050
Location: Florida
I hope that this generally liberal board is able to maintain integrity and consistency by being willing to criticize Democrats for using the threat of a government shutdown as a bargaining chip for an unrelated pet desire, much like they criticized Republicans for doing the same a few years ago.

I say this as someone who is very strongly in support of DACA, much like I said it when Republicans were doing it with health care - this is not the time and place, and you should be ashamed of yourselves for neglecting to do the jobs you are hired to do.

_________________
everything happens so much

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:14 pm 
Offline
bioalchemist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:08 am
Posts: 9911
Location: the dry land
There was a bipartisan deal the White House torched. And the GOP holds the Legislative Branch. Trying to dump all the blame on the minority party is a bit rich...especially since there was a bipartisan deal the White House torched. IMHO, Congress should have passed that bipartisan deal (the hardliners didn't like it and it might've taken more courage than the current leadership possesses to put it on the floor, but my understanding is the votes were there) and let Trump own the results.

_________________
When you can do nothing what can you do?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:36 pm 
Offline
not something I would recommend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:13 pm
Posts: 13050
Location: Florida
I'm certainly not dumping all the blame on anybody as I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around. But from what I can see the Democrats right now are doing exactly what the Republicans were criticized for doing in 2013. If it was wrong for them to do it then, it's wrong for Democrats to do it now.

_________________
everything happens so much

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trump's America
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:55 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 33155
There are significant differences between what happened in 2013 and what is happening now. In 2013, the GOP shut down the government over a petulant temper tantrum about repealing Obamacare, which was never going to happen. Here we have a situation in which, as River pointed out, there was broad bipartisan agreement on a deal on DACA. Trump himself said in a televised group meeting that he would sign any deal that was brought to him, even if he didn't agree with it. In truth, the agreement that was reached by the bipartisan group in the Senate closely followed the outline that Trump himself laid out. But he then sided with the most radical conservative in his administration and in Congress and blew the deal up, in the most vulgar and insulting way possible. At that point the Democrats' only choice was to act on the only leverage that they had, or admit to total irrelevance. I don't like shutting the government down over a side issue, as important as it may be, but I'm not sure what choice they had under the circumstances. And there will be deal agreed to by the end of the weekend, or soon after, on another short-term spending bill, so that we can do this again in a few weeks.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 958 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45 ... 48  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group