Brexit Carried - Endgame

[Impenitent]

This little parody segment is simething I look forward to each Sunday morning.

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[Cenedril_Gildinaur]

The Catalonia parliament has approved secession, the Spanish government has indicated it does not recognize this action.

If Catalonia goes ahead with this, will it mean war?

Secession doesn't happen in "modern" "advanced" nations. Sure it is fine in places like South Sudan and Kosovo, but not in Ukraine, as decreed by the US. Here's a case that the US actually hasn't commented on, and I sure hope that the people of Spain and Catalonia aren't waiting for US input. So far it seems they aren't, but I'm not in Spain to tell and there isn't a lot of English language coverage.

[Cenedril_Gildinaur]

Here's one of the rare English language articles, in the BBC because they cover more news than American media.

Spain Catalonia: Ballot papers for banned referendum to be seized

The Spanish government has declared secession illegal, the Catalonian government vowed to go ahead with it anyway, so the Spanish government has ordered election material to be seized.

If Catalonia does vote to leave, how far will Spain go to prevent it?

[yovargas]

Not much to say but I find this fascinating.

[Inanna]

And I had no clue about it...

[Cenedril_Gildinaur]

Another facet of the Catalonia saga is a question of standards. When the UK voted to leave the EU, Scotland in turn threatened to leave the UK in order to stay in the EU. Now it may have been just bluster, but that is what they said, and it seemed like the EU was ready to roll out the welcome mat.

Catalonia has expressed a desire to leave Spain but stay in the EU, and the EU's response is quite different. The EU has replied that since admission to the EU involves approval of existing member states, Spain would block Catalonian membership and that would leave Catalonia out of the EU.

The subject of secession is an interesting one, especially with regards to when it gets approval and when it gets disapproval. Kosovo leaving Serbia is approved, South Sudan leaving Sudan is approved, Donetsk leaving Ukraine is not approved, Catalonia leaving Spain is not approved. The UK leaving the EU is condemned but regarded as something that can be done in spite of disagreement, and Scotland wanting to stay in the EU to the point of leaving the UK was treated approvingly even if Scottish independence might not get approved under other circumstances.

When is secession acceptable and when is it unacceptable, that is an interesting question.

[Frelga]

Donetsk is not secession, it's an invasion.

[Cenedril_Gildinaur]

Donetsk is not secession, it's an invasion.

Well, that's under dispute. Donetsk (and another republic) declared independence in a move Ukraine said was illegal. The unrecognized Republic then started building ties to Russia. Ukraine sent in troops to reclaim the unrecognized independent republic, so Donetsk asked Russia for help. Russia claims it is aiding Donetsk, Ukraine claims it is a Russian invasion.

This the inconsistent standard about when a breakaway secession is recognized or not.

[Frelga]

Did you just mansplain Ukraine to me? You realize I grew up there, have family who lived in Donetsk, and get my information from both Russian and Ukrainian news, as well as friends who are there right now.

It's an invasion.

[yovargas]

As someone who knows next to nothing about the situation, can you clarify which part of CG's description was inaccurate?

[Frelga]

All of it. The entire thing was orchestrated by Russia and backed by Russian military.

I don't have a keyboard to type the background now, but I believe there's a relevant thread in this forum.

[Sunsilver]

I didn't realize how horribly evil Putin is until the scandal broke about Russia's meddling in the U.S. election. Then I started to see articles like this: http://thehalloffire.net/forum/viewtopi ... in#p330552

Unfortunately, I forgot to link my post to the original article.

I've now managed to fix that omission:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ee/534864/

[Cenedril_Gildinaur]

All of it. The entire thing was orchestrated by Russia and backed by Russian military.

I don't have a keyboard to type the background now, but I believe there's a relevant thread in this forum.

Secession efforts are seldom successful without outside backing, and governments almost never recognize them. By definition, from the Ukranian point of view, the vote was illegal, the secession never happened, and Russian participation was invasion. By definition. And other actors in this drama have other definitions. From the Donetsk point of view the vote was legal, secession happened, Ukraine invaded, and Russia came to the rescue.

That I report on both perspectives is why every point in my post is wrong.

[Primula Baggins]

When a tense discussion is going on, sarcasm is objectionable, too, Cenedril.

Frelga, I believe I understand why you're so angry, but it's unlikely to make a difference in this case.

I can't be here longer than this. I would just ask that you both adopt a calmer tone. I see no reason why we can't have an exchange that generates more light than heat. But if I'm wrong about that, I'll step in.

[Frelga]

I am not angry at all, Prim. I am a bit bemused but not surprised.

[Primula Baggins]

Okay. Thanks for clarifying, Frelga.

[Cenedril_Gildinaur]

Spanish officials crank up pressure on Catalan breakaway bid

Spain's top prosecutor is investigating more than 700 Catalan mayors for cooperating with a planned referendum on the region's independence after the nation's constitutional court ordered the vote put on hold, the prosecutor's office said Wednesday. Catalonia's regional police force is under orders to arrest the mayors if they refuse to appear for questioning, State Prosecutor Jose Manuel Maza's office said. The announcement significantly raised the stakes in an increasingly tense standoff between Catalan independence supporters and national authorities over the referendum planned for Oct. 1.

If they help have the election (without any regard for the results, just the election) they get arrested. Again, there seems to be some standard I can't grasp about when secession is approved of and when it isn't.

[Cenedril_Gildinaur]

Did you just mansplain Ukraine to me?

No, I'm not mansplaining, I'm personsplaining. That's what happens when one person is talking to another person. The only reason that would be objectionable is if you aren't a person.

The term "mansplaining" is sexist, misandrist, demeaning, and offensive.

[Primula Baggins]

It also pretty clearly describes something women experience very frequently. I would argue that it is not misandrist; it's descriptive.

[Frelga]

CG, mansplaining occurs when a man (it's pretty much always a man) explains in an authoritative tone things he knows a great deal less about than, usually, a woman he explains them to. The reason you are wrong about Ukraine is that you seem to look at secession movements in a positive light because they destabilize The State, which you appear to consider a good thing. That ideology is the only perspective that allows viewing the Ukrainian situation as anything other than an invasion. Well, that and Russian propaganda.