Escaping the Echo Chamber

[Dave_LF]

Even if it happens with someone she knows well, while sober, attending a public place, there will be people saying that "she should have been more responsible". It's horribly unfair.

Yeah, it is. Brace yourself for a shock, but it turns out that people have all sorts of moral opinions about sex. And when someone gets hurts in the act of doing something you consider morally wrong, it's really, really hard not to leap to "well if s/he hadn't been doing that in the first place..."

[Alatar]

Everyone's a stranger at first. People at bars drink. Of course she went somewhere alone because they were going to have sex.

I think part of the problem is that it seems that no matter what the circumstances of rape accusations, no matter how it happened or what the woman did, there seems to always be a chorus of people saying "well, why was she doing X to being with?" Even if it happens with someone she knows well, while sober, attending a public place, there will be people saying that "she should have been more responsible". It's horribly unfair.

So is your position that its not dangerous to go to a private place with a stranger while drunk? Or that even if its dangerous, there should be no attempt made to avoid that danger? Or that not avoiding the danger is not irresponsible? Again, not trying to be snarky, just trying to understand where you, personally, draw that line?

[yovargas]

So is your position that its not dangerous to go to a private place with a stranger while drunk?

Considering how easy it is for me to imagine the exact thing happening to her while sober on a 5th date, I'm gonna say that the "with a stranger while drunk" isn't the problem. The problem with the comparison to the "don't be out in Harlem at 3am" thing is that for women it basically becomes "don't be anywhere that there are men". Which is.....a bit of a problem.

[Alatar]

See that's where we differ. I choose to believe, maybe naively, that most guys are decent, and this is unlikely to happen with a guy she knows well.

[Dave_LF]

Was guy #1 complicit in all this or not? Hook seemed to think so based on his comments, but he also didn't seem to really know the story.

[Frelga]

Even if it happens with someone she knows well, while sober, attending a public place, there will be people saying that "she should have been more responsible". It's horribly unfair.

Yeah, it is. Brace yourself for a shock, but it turns out that people have all sorts of moral opinions about sex. And when someone gets hurts in the act of doing something you consider morally wrong, it's really, really hard not to leap to "well if s/he hadn't been doing that in the first place..."

And that's what it is ultimately about and why I am so angry that apparently decent people feel the need to defend the indefensible. At the root, this is about controlling what a woman can and cannot do based on the rules set by other people. It's her fault for breaking them.

And the rule here is that a woman can be perfectly virtuous or else she is fair game for any man. If she chose to have sex with one man, how dare she assume she can refuse another.

Of course not Dave, but I don't think anyone is saying that? Even George Hook in his clumsy way made that bit unequivocal.

"Should she be raped? Course she shouldn’t. Is she entitled to say no? Absolutely. Is the guy who came in a scumbag? Certainly. Should he go to jail? Of Course. All of those things."

And if he stopped there, he wouldn't have gotten his metaphorical balls nailed to the wall. It's the "but" that makes his comments despicable.

[Dave_LF]

But if some drunk guy heads back to a hotel room with a random girl he just met in the bar, and there's her boyfriend with a gun asking nicely for his wallet and phone, don't you think he'll meet with the same sort of tongue-clucking? Or worse, just plain ridicule?

[yovargas]

See that's where we differ. I choose to believe, maybe naively, that most guys are decent...

I fully agree.

...and this is unlikely to happen with a guy she knows well.

Most rape and sexual assault is done by people the victims know, not strangers. What are women supposed to do about that?

But if some drunk guy heads back to a hotel room with a random girl he just met in the bar, and there's her boyfriend with a gun asking nicely for his wallet and phone, don't you think he'll meet with the same sort of tongue-clucking? Or worse, just plain ridicule?

Not really, no.

[Sunsilver]

I found the source of the info I posted upstream: https://www.amazon.ca/Macho-Paradox-Som ... 1402204019

Here's the entire post. It makes me sad.

From Doranna Durgin's Facebook page...

I draw a line down the middle of a chalkboard, sketching a male symbol on one side and a female symbol on the other. Then I ask just the men: What steps do you guys take, on a daily basis, to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted?

At first there is a kind of awkward silence as the men try to figure out if they've been asked a trick question. The silence gives way to a smattering of nervous laughter. Occasionally, a young a guy will raise his hand and say, 'I stay out of prison.' This is typically followed by another moment of laughter, before someone finally raises his hand and soberly states, 'Nothing. I don't think about it.'

Then I ask women the same question. What steps do you take on a daily basis to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted?

Women throughout the audience immediately start raising their hands. As the men sit in stunned silence, the women recount safety precautions they take as part of their daily routine. Here are some of their answers: Hold my keys as a potential weapon. Look in the back seat of the car before getting in. Carry a cell phone. Don't go jogging at night. Lock all the windows when I sleep, even on hot summer nights. Be careful not to drink too much. Don't put my drink down and come back to it; make sure I see it being poured. Own a big dog. Carry Mace or pepper spray. Have an unlisted phone number. Have a man's voice on my answering machine. Park in well-lit areas. Don't use parking garages. Don't get on elevators with only one man, or with a group of men. Vary my route home from work. Watch what I wear. Don't use highway rest areas. Use a home alarm system. Don't wear headphones when jogging. Avoid forests or wooded areas, even in the daytime. Don't take a first-floor apartment. Go out in groups. Own a firearm. Meet men on first dates in public places. Make sure to have a car or cab fare. Don't make eye contact with men on the street. Make assertive eye contact with men on the street.

[JewelSong]

I choose to believe, maybe naively, that most guys are decent, and this is unlikely to happen with a guy she knows well.

I personally know at least 3 women who were raped by men they "knew well." In two of the cases, the man was an ex-boyfriend. Perhaps he felt he was entitled, since they'd had sex in the past.

[River]

Statistically speaking, a woman is more likely to be attacked by someone known to her. Same with children.

It will be a great day when enough men are holding each other accountable that we can stop having these conversations. But right now the male half of the species continues to be shocked when the female half decides to stand up and share their experiences. Maybe one day the shock will give way to action, but I feel like these conversations happen every year and get nowhere. Look who won the most recent US presidential election for god's sake. You think people who chose to vote for a guy who bragged about grabbing them by the pussy actually, at the end of day, give a damn about sexual assault?

[Alatar]

Is anyone suggesting that I'm not holding rapists accountable?

[Primula Baggins]

I haven't seen that said, Alatar.

[River]

No. Just venting. Though it is irritating how these things always come back to what the woman should or shouldn't've been doing... "Why'd she drink so much?" "Why'd she leave with a stranger?" "Why'd she....?" What about "Why didn't he just keep his pants on?" or "Why didn't he get consent?" or "Why'd he think it was okay to do that in the first place?"

[Alatar]

I think that was the starting point of the conversation River. Again "Should she be raped? Course she shouldn’t. Is she entitled to say no? Absolutely. Is the guy who came in a scumbag? Certainly. Should he go to jail? Of Course. All of those things."

The question is not whether the man was guilty of a heinous act. The question is whether any of us are expected to take responsibility for our own actions that put us in danger.

[Primula Baggins]

It might also be useful to contemplate why a particular situation is dangerous, and whether it might be less dangerous if certain sorts of men did not feel perfectly entitled to make sexual use of any woman whenever and wherever he chooses. And whether it's a fixed and unchangeable circumstance that men in ordinary life can go about their business never giving a thought to the possibility that they might be sexually assaulted, whereas women, even ones with lives as ordinary as mine, do spend time and energy taking precautions to protect themselves from sexual assault pretty much anytime we're anywhere alone, or after dark, or with strangers, or in an unfamiliar town. I am not a paranoid person, but I get my keys into my hand before I leave a building at night to walk to my car; check the back seat before I get in; and get my house keys out before I unlock the car and get out to walk to the front door. This is just ordinary, this is just life. Why is this standard practice for women and would seem ridiculous to the average man?

[Griffon64]

I walk out the office keys in hand, car key at the ready, and to my house, house key handy, without even pausing to ask why - but all the same knowing I do it so I can have a shot at escape if need be. Does that make sense? I just do it because I have to be cautious and on guard. No man I know does that. Well, some men must, for the same reason I do. I just don't know them.

[Frelga]

Is anyone suggesting that I'm not holding rapists accountable?

You are blaming the victim. You are saying that a woman engaging in behavior that is considered normal for men is being reckless, and should be held responsible for being assaulted.

Ask yourself - why is it safe for your son to do things that would be dangerous for your daughter? And are you OK with that?

But if some drunk guy heads back to a hotel room with a random girl he just met in the bar, and there's her boyfriend with a gun asking nicely for his wallet and phone, don't you think he'll meet with the same sort of tongue-clucking? Or worse, just plain ridicule?

Do not compare raping a woman to taking a guy's wallet. The equivalent situation would be the guy heading to a hotel with a girl and being raped by another man.

[Impenitent]

I think I know where Alatar is coming from (though maybe I'm wrong).

In a perfect world, gender should not determine whether a person is more likely to be assaulted or harrassed.

We don't live in a perfect world. We know that there are people (the very great majority of them being male) who will assault or sexually harrass others (the very great majority of them being female). This is fact.

In view of this fact, if one is female it makes more sense to make note of this and take reasonable action to prevent, avoid or evade this happening to you, than to ignore this fact, knowing it increases your risk of this happening to you. It's unfair, unjust, enraging, but it's fact.

Mind you, even taking enormous precautions to minimise risk (moving in 'safe' crowds at all times, not drinking, wearing a nun's habit summer and winter, etc) will not eliminate risk, because there are sociopathic arseholes who will still find a way to perpetrate sexual assault if they really, really want to.

So, yes, I worry more about my daughter than my son, because statistically it's more likely to happen to my daughter than my son (he's more likely to suffer being king-hit though, so that kind of balances my worry scale somewhat), and I hope they both take commonsense precautions to reduce the possibility of placing themselves at risk -not eliminate, that's impossible, but reduce.

This is not because I think she's ethically or morally deficient as compared to my son but because statistics!

So I hope my daughter doesn't have to be alone at night in the more dangerous areas of town, keeps an assessing eye on social situations, reduces her alcohol intake etc, and that my son doesn't hang around King Street clubs late at night when angry well-soused young men are likely leaving those clubs looking to prove their masculinity.

And if he ignores those risks and (gods forbid) does get king hit, I'll be terrified for him, and outraged by the perpetrator's actions, and probably I won't be able to stop myself from wondering why the hell he was outside that club at 3 am, because he should know better.

There's also this fabulous article: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-41614720

Dr Fiona Vera-Gray is a researcher from Durham University who has spent the last five years speaking to women about how they change their behaviour through fear of sexual harassment and assault.

Whilst the forms and frequencies of men's harassment of women may be different across the world, the work that women perform in order to limit it is constant... the term "safety work", describes the habitual strategies that women develop in response to their experiences in public. We perform safety work often without thinking, it becomes part of our habits, or "common-sense".
<snip>
The vast majority of this work is pre-emptive, we often can't even know if what we are experiencing as intrusive is intrusive unless it starts to escalate: he speeds up and crosses the street when you do, he moves from staring to touching. But as this is the very thing safety work is designed to disrupt, success becomes the absence of what might have happened.
<snip>
All of this was encapsulated in the words of one woman I spoke to in London, Katie-Lou. What women are daily being asked to have is the "right amount" of panic.
"It's conflicting messages isn't it? It's take care of yourself but then if you imagine that someone is maybe a danger you're being a silly woman. You have to do just the right amount of panicking don't you?"

Read the whole article.

[Alatar]

Is anyone suggesting that I'm not holding rapists accountable?

You are blaming the victim. You are saying that a woman engaging in behavior that is considered normal for men is being reckless, and should be held responsible for being assaulted.

Ask yourself - why is it safe for your son to do things that would be dangerous for your daughter? And are you OK with that?

First off, I am quite clearly not blaming the victim. I am saying that the victim could have been more careful. That's not blame, that's common sense. Should she have to? No, of course not. But this is not an ideal world. In the real world each of us takes calculated risks every day, from getting into a car, to going to a ski slope, to drinking to oblivion and hoping we grab a cab that takes us home and not into a ditch to rob/rape/murder us.

Am I ok with the fact that it is safer (not safe, just safer) for my son than my daughter? No, of course not. Does that mean I'll tell my daughter to assume she is just as safe as he is? Of course not. That would be stupid.

Thanks Impy, you're spot on.