So 'hate' speech isn't about hate, it's actually disfavor speech, much as the 'phobe' appellations aren't actually naming a fear phenomenon. I think they're both unfortunate but very clever and effective contrivances to pressure conformity of thought, or at least, of speech.elengil wrote:hate speech
noun
abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice against a particular group, especially on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation.
"we don't tolerate any form of hate speech"
Escaping the Echo Chamber
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
I don't think calling abusive or threatening speech merely "disfavor" is fair or accurate.
That said, the original tweet was not abusive, or threatening, or prejudiced by any meaningful definition of those words. It's upsetting speech, but that's all.
That said, the original tweet was not abusive, or threatening, or prejudiced by any meaningful definition of those words. It's upsetting speech, but that's all.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
After the example we were given of 'hate speech,' I was presuming a similar exaggeration in the terms 'abusive' and 'threatening' in the context of the definition.yovargas wrote:I don't think calling abusive or threatening speech merely "disfavor" is fair or accurate.
I agree that truly abusive and threatening speech would not fall under the term 'disfavor.'
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
I don't think that Folau's statement counts as hate speech. But it doesn't have to be hate speech for Rugby Australia to have a commercial interest in him not posting it. The question is how far that commercial interest extends.
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Can we back up this Tonka truck? Where exactly does it say in the Bible that gay people are going to hell?
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
It's not really the point, but the Bible contains multiple references to sinners being eternally damned, some references commonly interpreted as meaning that damnation will be by fire, and a few places that can be interpreted as indicating men having sex with men is a sin. (Interestingly, to my knowledge there are no such references regarding women being with women.) Put that all together and you get the belief that homosexuals will be damned to hell, an unsurprising conclusion given the Bible's general positions on sex.
But again, that's not really the point.
But again, that's not really the point.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
I thought it was precisely the point. The entire defense of the bigoted post was that it was based on the actual Biblical quote and therefore somehow different from regular bigoted speech. So where's the quote?
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
No, the point is that the concepts of god, sin, and hell are 100% religious/spiritual concepts and I do not believe that it is just or fair to punish people for they're 100% religious/spiritual beliefs.
But here's the quote anyway.
But here's the quote anyway.
1 Corinthians 6:9 wrote:Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
- elengil
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
While I haven't seen it, it is very likely a quote (or paraphrase) of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10Frelga wrote:I thought it was precisely the point. The entire defense of the bigoted post was that it was based on the actual Biblical quote and therefore somehow different from regular bigoted speech. So where's the quote?
The exact phrasing changes with translation version. It technically does not actually say they are going to hell.Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
edit: oops, cross posted with Yov
Last edited by elengil on Thu May 23, 2019 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
- elengil
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
But society demands that we put limits on people for what may be their 100% religious/spiritual beliefs. We don't allow human sacrifice no matter how ardently a person believes in it, nor do we allow stoning of your neighbors anymore, even though the Bible very clearly tells us to do so. We don't allow people to do a good many things, no matter their beliefs, and simply believing it 100% is not an excuse for an action which is not allowed (either legally or socially).yovargas wrote:No, the point is that the concepts of god, sin, and hell are 100% religious/spiritual concepts and I do not believe that it is just or fair to punish people for they're 100% religious/spiritual beliefs.
He wasn't punished for his beliefs, he was fired for his actions.
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Human sacrifice and stoning are not god, sin, and hell are 100% religious/spiritual concepts as they have very non-spiritual effects, unlike the ideas about sin and hell.elengil wrote: But society demands that we put limits on people for what may be their 100% religious/spiritual beliefs. We don't allow human sacrifice no matter how ardently a person believes in it, nor do we allow stoning of your neighbors anymore, even though the Bible very clearly tells us to do so.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
If I were to tell you that in my religion, people born in the month of June will be sent to the land of Barpink upon death, where they will be eternally flung into the infinite lake of acid by the demon bird Quoltoso, unless they kneel face down during a full moon and beg for the three-headed goddess of Pokk to rescue them......... would you consider me hateful towards people born in June?
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
- elengil
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Ideas about sin and hell absolutely do have very real non-spiritual effects. People didn't stone others for fun, they stoned them because of their ideals about sin. Very 100% believed ideas about sin. We as a society have deemed: You can believe whatever you wish - you have that absolute right. You cannot undertake any action you wish based solely on that belief. That is where the line is drawn. Believe what you wish, but actions must still conform to legal and social limits.yovargas wrote:Human sacrifice and stoning are not god, sin, and hell are 100% religious/spiritual concepts as they have very non-spiritual effects, unlike the ideas about sin and hell.elengil wrote: But society demands that we put limits on people for what may be their 100% religious/spiritual beliefs. We don't allow human sacrifice no matter how ardently a person believes in it, nor do we allow stoning of your neighbors anymore, even though the Bible very clearly tells us to do so.
How many of your followers routinely murder people born in June? Or cast them out of society? Or force them to undergo Birth Month Conversion Therapy? Do they persecute people having sex in September? Drag them from their beds to stand before an angry mob Barpink-bent on punishing them for the possible conception of a child to be born in June?would you consider me hateful towards people born in June?
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Oh. Paul. I always forget about Paul.elengil wrote:While I haven't seen it, it is very likely a quote (or paraphrase) of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10Frelga wrote:I thought it was precisely the point. The entire defense of the bigoted post was that it was based on the actual Biblical quote and therefore somehow different from regular bigoted speech. So where's the quote?The exact phrasing changes with translation version. It technically does not actually say they are going to hell.Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
edit: oops, cross posted with Yov
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
There was no bible verse included, so far as I can tell. Here is the post that he made:
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"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
elengil wrote: How many of your followers routinely murder people born in June? Or cast them out of society? Or force them to undergo Birth Month Conversion Therapy? Do they persecute people having sex in September? Drag them from their beds to stand before an angry mob Barpink-bent on punishing them for the possible conception of a child to be born in June?
And as soon as a person starts advocating or engaging in any of these things, then you can get mad. Not before.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
- elengil
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
I'm not mad. No one here is mad. His employer terminated his employment. His freedom of religion wasn't hindered, his action had a consequence.yovargas wrote: And as soon as a person starts advocating or engaging in any of these things, then you can get mad. Not before.
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
I imagine the people here that accused him of spouting hate speech are probably not very pleased.elengil wrote:I'm not mad. No one here is mad.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
- elengil
- Cat-egorical Herbitual Creativi-Tea
- Posts: 6248
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:45 pm
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Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
That does not make them angry.yovargas wrote:I imagine the people here that accused him of spouting hate speech are probably not very pleased.elengil wrote:I'm not mad. No one here is mad.
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
Re: Escaping the Echo Chamber
Oh for goodness sakes, not entirely beside the point I'm making.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists