Escaping the Echo Chamber

[yovargas]

Sweet story. So much of that kind of thing depends on individual personalities that it gets really hard to untangle it from general social expectations stuff though. I hope you are right though, and the newest generations will have it easier when it comes to this kind of stuff.


Also, not for nothing but I don't think I've ever seen girls do stuff like this:

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[Dave_LF]

That could have been me!

[elengil]

A little anecdote that's sort of related, sort of not. My five-year-old son started taking gymnastics this summer. I don't know what he thought gymnastics was exactly, but in the days leading up to his first class, he got very, very excited. The big day finally arrived, but when I drove him to the gym, he didn't want to get out of the car. "What's the matter?" I asked. "I thought you were excited about this?" And he looked me right in the eye and said "I am excited, but I'm kind of nervous too."
...

Also related: I also liked gymnastics as a kid, but stopped pursuing it because my peers let me know that it was for girls

Wait, we're missing the end of the story. Is he still in gymnastics? What does he think of it?

Oddly, I've never considered being nervous about something new to be something shameful... but then, that was pretty much my default state, so maybe that's why.

I, too, wanted to take gymnastics as a kid. I desperately wanted to. But for some reason my mom's neuroses surfaced and she expected me, a child of... what 7 or 8? Who knew absolutely nothing about gymnastics, knew nobody at the place, and was already a very shy and socially awkward child, she wanted me to walk myself in and attend out of the blue.

I'm not sure how that was supposed to work, exactly. Had she told them I was coming? Had she pre-paid? I mean, if they didn't let me participate, was she going to still be outside? I felt like I was being kicked into a hostile environment and my mom was saying: too bad, if you don't go in yourself you don't get to go at all.

I never attended gymnastics. Or joined the band. Or did a host of other things where all I needed was someone to walk in with me and she refused to do so.

Oddly enough... I was in drama in high school. I don't know how I was psychologically okay with doing that but not the rest, but whatever.

[RoseMorninStar]

Awww Dave, that is a sweet story! I'm glad some of the norms are changing. My father and grandfather would never kiss his son/grandsons, even when they were babies.. they would shake their hands!! The even darker side of that is that they saw all the girls as sexual fair game.. (because that's what we were created for)

[Dave_LF]

Wait, we're missing the end of the story. Is he still in gymnastics? What does he think of it?

It's only been a couple months, but yes, he's still doing it and loving it (and his teachers loooooove him. Everyone loves 5, even though he's a little demon for his parents half the time ).

[elengil]

Awww Dave, that is a sweet story! I'm glad some of the norms are changing. My father and grandfather would never kiss his son/grandsons, even when they were babies.. they would shake their hands!! The even darker side of that is that they saw all the girls as sexual fair game.. (because that's what we were created for)

yah.

Girls are only sexual, but they shouldn't be too sexual, but sexual enough for our fantasies, but not so much we can't 'control our urges', so not dressed 'immodestly' but also not too covered up. And if their bodies are exposed they should absolutely be for our sexual viewing and not for gross things like feeding babies, unless their bodies are gross then they shouldn't expose their bodies - in fact we shouldn't have to see them in public at all, and if we do then we have a right to shame them for not aligning to our standards of female sexual attractiveness, but if they do align they have no right to be mad when we comment on their appearance, it was a complement, after all! If they didn't want to be noticed they should have covered up!

[RoseMorninStar]

Wait, we're missing the end of the story. Is he still in gymnastics? What does he think of it?

It's only been a couple months, but yes, he's still doing it and loving it (and his teachers loooooove him. Everyone loves 5, even though he's a little demon for his parents half the time ).

That is so cool Dave!

elengil.. and it's always our fault.

[elengil]

elengil.. and it's always our fault.

Always.

Also, most of the time we don't even exist. https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/invisible-women/

[elengil]

Wait, we're missing the end of the story. Is he still in gymnastics? What does he think of it?

It's only been a couple months, but yes, he's still doing it and loving it (and his teachers loooooove him. Everyone loves 5, even though he's a little demon for his parents half the time ).

awwww

[River]

You know, I'm going to be annoyed if it turns out I'm the only one. I've been carrying the burden of some of this bullshite since first grade, and if it turns out the whole time I could have just shrugged and said "no, I don't want to do that," well...

Well there, you've escaped an echo chamber.

In all seriousness, I've noped out on some of bullshite traditionally ascribed to femininity. I've paid a price, but the only ones who ever exact that price are my parents' generation and older. Elengil and Rose are kind of capturing why. Rather than try and straddle that line between Madonna and Whore I just went for Nerd. And since nerd is cool and has been cool for a while now, the only enforcers of the old standards are heading into retirement age.

[elengil]

Rather than try and straddle that line between Madonna and Whore I just went for Nerd.

For me it was less a choice and more that the other categories sort of refused me. Nerd was sort of the only category left for me to fit in and it didn't require anyone else to accept me - in fact not being accepted (at the time) was sort of the entry fee.

[Maria]

And since nerd is cool and has been cool for a while now, the only enforcers of the old standards are heading into retirement age.

I'm heading into retirement age, and I've been nerdy all my life- way before it was cool.

And as far as the ready for a fistfight thing goes, I almost unconsciously size up new men that I meet. It's actually a shock when my automatic assessment function brings up the answer, "No, you'd have trouble with him a fight." Maybe it's because my testosterone levels run higher than normal for a woman?

My husband- man of few words that he is- when his lyme disease symptoms started getting bad, he decided to get the training to carry a concealed weapon. I protested strenuously. I didn't see why it was necessary and didn't understand why he wanted it. We both have the skills to put someone down who puts hands on us. Why the lethal weapon?

Goaded enough, he finally admitted that he didn't feel like he could protect me any more. That led into a whole different conversation about why he felt like he needed to protect me instead of me protecting myself? Huh? Where did that come from? Am I suddenly incompetent? Is he suddenly wanting to spend lots of time in big cities?

Anyway, we finally came to an understanding. He got the training and the license. But he only takes the handgun with us when we go to a stranger's place to buy something listed on craigslist, or vice versa. And he doesn't wear it, usually. Just leaves it in the truck where either of us can get to it if necessary.

And there's never been a hint of trouble at a craigslist buy. So, I feel that his insecurities are much more a fact of his conditioning than anything else. He's not really that frail. But he HAS been trained to protect the family.... but I wouldn't have put it in those words before today.

Thanks for the article, Dave.

[yovargas]

One of the most interesting ideas in the article, I thought, was the way that the desire to protect someone can become the desire to control them. Not totally sure how much I agree with it but it's a really interesting thought, imo.

(Subtle benefit of being a scrawny unathletic wuss my whole life is I've never had any expectations that I could protect anyone from anything. I've known 12-year old girls who could probably beat me up. )

[Frelga]

For the record, I've spent most of my life in big cities, including as a young woman taking public transit between San Francisco and not the best part of Oakland, living two blocks from a pretty rough neighborhood, and my husband being away on business for weeks at a time while we lived in a ground floor studio with a flimsy door. I have never been in a situation that would have in any way been improved by me having a firearm.

[Maria]

I really don't like even getting close to high population density areas. There's just something fundamentally wrong about having so many people crowded together so closely. It affects their behavior.

Have I ever mentioned that everyone who drives on the gravel road that goes past our house waves when they see you? You can always tell if it's a stranger on the road, because they don't wave. I couldn't tell you who even 2% of them are, but we all wave at each other.

The opposite is true in towns and cities. You try pretty hard not to *notice* other people or meet their eyes. It's a mental self defense, I think. If you don't acknowledge their presence, then they aren't there and they aren't crowding you.

That's just one example. You never hear of riots in little towns of 200 people or so, do you? Mob mentality requires crowds to activate.

Not that we can get rid of big cities and have everyone move out to the countryside. There isn't enough surface area for reasonable dispersal and some people just aren't comfortable with all the peace and quiet out here. My mother in law, for instance, has often asked me how I stand it out on our farm. It's so isolated. Aren't I scared to be there by myself when my husband is gone? And then she starts complaining about all the recent atrocities she's heard about on the news where she lives in St. Louis. I'd go freaking insane if I lived where she does! Too many bad vibes too close together.

The only time I'm scared on our farm is when a mama cow tries to kill me. I'm SO sending that one to a livestock auction next month!

[Frelga]

The pressure of public opinion can do in the town what the law cannot accomplish. There is no lane so vile that the scream of a tortured child, or the thud of a drunkard’s blow, does not beget sympathy and indignation among the neighbours, and then the whole machinery of justice is ever so close that a word of complaint can set it going, and there is but a step between the crime and the dock. But look at these lonely houses, each in its own fields, filled for the most part with poor ignorant folk who know little of the law. Think of the deeds of hellish cruelty, the hidden wickedness which may go on, year in, year out, in such places, and none the wiser.

Sherlock Holmes in The Adventure of the Copper Beeches

[Maria]

Hmmm, so the city/ rural divide existed so long ago as that, eh?

There are plenty of examples of hellish cruelty in urban or suburban areas in the news every day. Many of which went on for years and years without intervention by neighbors.

And how could he say that, anyway? Wasn't Jack the Ripper in Doyle's lifetime?

[Frelga]

Maria, before I go on, let me check in - is this an upsetting topic? I'm not that invested, so feel free to ignore the rest of this post if it bothers you.

Gun Violence Increasingly a Rural Problem, Study Finds

[quotes]Researchers at UC Davis’ Violence Prevention Research Program evaluated more than 50,000 firearm deaths – both homicides and suicides – recorded in California counties between 2000 and 2015. At the start of the study, firearm homicide was largely an urban problem, the researchers found. But by 2015, gun murders in urban areas had dropped, resulting in similar rates in both urban and rural counties, the research showed.

...

Suicide rates in rural areas were three times higher than in urban counties. Older white men were more likely than other demographic groups to die by gun suicide.[/quote]

Highlights mine.

[RoseMorninStar]

I've lived in very small towns and rural areas (although not likely as rural as where you are, Maria). Unfortunately, bad things happen in small towns/rural areas too. The frequency might be less because there are fewer people, of course. Small town problems don't always make the news, but they are not immune to problems, they are just adjusted by sheer numbers in cities. Ed Ghein was from a rural area. Lynchings happened in rural towns. Drug overdoses were and continue to be a big problem in the rural area I lived in Indiana. Often people move to cities to improve their fortunes, that's where the jobs are. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. I'd say poverty/hopelessness is probably a big indicator of crime, but certainly not the only factor.

[Maria]

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."


I promise not to get upset by this topic, but I do get tired of Hollywood portraying people in isolated areas as mostly likely up to no good, if not downright evil. It is a VERY overused trope, without much basis in reality, in my opinion.

I don't know about other people, but I simply do not do well when there are a lot of people around me. It's like a living pressure against my mind, battering against my brain. Once, right after arriving in Toronto for the 2003 Moot, I had my first and only panic attack. The weight of SO MANY PEOPLE all around me was overwhelming and terrifying. If I hadn't already been learning some mental shielding techniques, I might not have been able to snap out of it. I'm not saying I felt thoughts or anything. Just a lot of pressure, pushing at me. Millions and millions of people all within the same square mile as I was ......

I've seen what animals do when they are crowded too many into too small of a space. They are more irritable and fight each other more. Why should it be any different with humans? We haven't left the animal sides of our natures that far behind, yet.

Individual people in rural areas aren't any better or worse than people in suburban or urban areas - there will always be sickos in either place... but the fact that millions of humans are crowded onto the same space that should only hold a few hundred if we were hunter/ gatherers is going to create stresses that are very unnatural. People have only had dense urban areas for a few millenia compared to hundreds of thousands of years as hunter/gatherers. That isn't enough time to adapt to the stresses involved, in my opinion.

I didn't grow up out in the country. I spent my first 10 years or so being moved around to various towns and cities in the southern US by my parents, until they finally settled in the backwoods of the Missouri Ozarks in a little cabin they built themselves. That's where I grew to love quiet and isolation. After they finally got me a horse, I rode her by myself all over the area on the back roads, and no one ever offered me the slightest harm or even a harsh word. This was in the 70s. Just tell me a barefoot & bra-less 16 year old girl could walk all over multiple square miles of a city these days without being harassed. I'd like to know where.

People huddle in towns to protect themselves from bandits. The bandits are IN the towns these days.