Cultural Appropriation

[Frelga]

So should I get offended when every American dresses up like a Leprechaun in a red wig and says "Begorrah" on St Patrick's Day?

I don't know, are you offended? Would it upset you to see an English person to dress as, I dunno, Cu Chullainn or something?

[River]

Speaking as an American, Al, I find the leprechauns on St. Patrick's Day silly. But March is a pretty dreary month in most of the US. If it isn't still winter it's definitely mud season. The skiing's getting crappy. Nothing's blooming. Spring is coming but it's not here yet. In some areas the snow that fell around the end of November is still on the ground and OMG does that suck to look at. So if people have an excuse to paint everything green and get wasted they're going to jump all over it.

I would also include people in this country in dual-culture marriages, who are trying to help pass on their spouse's culture to their children and, for example, want to be able to bring correctly made dishes to family gatherings.

Oh boy that's a fun one to navigate...

I don't try to cook authentic Serbian food, though. My husband's mom taught him how to do that and then gave him a cookbook and his sister compiled some family recipes so he wouldn't starve in America. An unintended but fortunate consequence is our kindergartner, who is a very picky eater, has a taste for these family recipes. She may refuse to speak Serbian to her grandparents but she'll eat their cooking with a smile on her face.

[Maria]

I learned several Cajun dishes from my mother in law. I still make them for some family gatherings. My daughter even commercialized one Cajun sauce for the company she worked for at the time and brought several jars of the stuff to her grandmother one year. Cajun grandmother was thrilled that her old family recipe was getting shared all over the country. (It wasn't really her recipe, though, my daughter had to make several compromises in the ingredient preparations to suit mass production.)

https://www.robertrothschild.com/produc ... 1058327939

It still tasted about right. When my mother in law saw the name, though, she was alarmed, "You put wine in it????" My daughter had to assure her that was a marketing decision and that there wasn't even enough wine to taste in the concoction.

It occurs to me that my husband's judo class is almost entirely a cultural appropriation. The names of the moves are all in Japanese. The uniform certainly isn't anything from western culture. They count in Japanese. They have a picture of the Japanese founder on the wall and all new students have to memorize basic facts about him. They bow Japanese style. There's even a Japanese flag on the wall, alongside the US one. And the club logo has Japanese kanji in it. Wealthier students go to Japan to study judo there once in a great while.

And the sensei isn't a tiny Japanese judo master. He's a big, half Cajun, ex Army Ranger who was given the club when the previous sensei (also thoroughly American) retired and has continued the traditions.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

[elengil]

It occurs to me that my husband's judo class is almost entirely a cultural appropriation. The names of the moves are all in Japanese. The uniform certainly isn't anything from western culture. They count in Japanese. They have a picture of the Japanese founder on the wall and all new students have to memorize basic facts about him. They bow Japanese style. There's even a Japanese flag on the wall, alongside the US one. And the club logo has Japanese kanji in it. Wealthier students go to Japan to study judo there once in a great while.

And the sensei isn't a tiny Japanese judo master. He's a big, half Cajun, ex Army Ranger who was given the club when the previous sensei (also thoroughly American) retired and has continued the traditions.

I don't know that it falls into the category of cultural appropriation though, rather it is setting the activity it in its proper cultural context. Cultural appropriation IMO is more like taking it entirely out of this cultural context, ignoring its roots rather than acknowledging them in every aspect.

It's like when people take Holi - a Hindu festival - and rename it "color run". It isn't acknowledging its cultural origin or educating about its meaning. It divorces it from this context and focuses on one visual aspect of it and, in a way, commercializes it. That, to me, is when it becomes appropriation.

[River]

I see martial arts like judo and tae kwon do and so on as exports. It's not like the situation elengil describes at all. People came here, brought the martial art with them, and set up schools. Or in some cases were even sent here to set up schools. Cultural exchange would be the better way to describe it.

[Alatar]

So should I get offended when every American dresses up like a Leprechaun in a red wig and says "Begorrah" on St Patrick's Day?

I don't know, are you offended? Would it upset you to see an English person to dress as, I dunno, Cu Chullainn or something?

Not in the slightest. However I do object to the image of the “fighting Irish” that paints us all as drunken gombeen stereotypes. But I guess my point is, you can choose to be offended over everything and you can choose when to let it slide cause no offense was intended. I think there’s far too much of the former and not enough of the latter.

[Frelga]

So should I get offended when every American dresses up like a Leprechaun in a red wig and says "Begorrah" on St Patrick's Day?

I don't know, are you offended? Would it upset you to see an English person to dress as, I dunno, Cu Chullainn or something?

Not in the slightest. However I do object to the image of the “fighting Irish” that paints us all as drunken gombeen stereotypes. But I guess my point is, you can choose to be offended over everything and you can choose when to let it slide cause no offense was intended. I think there’s far too much of the former and not enough of the latter.

What I hear you say, Al, is that you do not want people to alter their behavior if they learn that it upsets you. I will be happy to make a note for future interactions.

But I would never tell you that you should stop being upset if you are. It would be a dick move, and people don't work like that anyway.

[RoseMorninStar]

The difference would be that a leprechaun is a mythical being while the drunken brawling 'Fighting Irish' caricature is a derogatory ethnic stereotype.

People shouldn't be jerks, but some go too far to the other extreme which has it's own sort of negative power.

[yovargas]

But I would never tell you that you should stop being upset if you are. It would be a dick move, and people don't work like that anyway.

But it is possible to look inside oneself, try to understand why one is upset, and sometimes possibly realize that you are having unreasonable emotional reactions. And then act accordingly.

[Frelga]

But I would never tell you that you should stop being upset if you are. It would be a dick move, and people don't work like that anyway.

But it is possible to look inside oneself, try to understand why one is upset, and sometimes possibly realize that you are having unreasonable emotional reactions. And then act accordingly.

Sure. If you do that kind of emotional work on yourself, you may grow as a human. But you never know what scars other people carry. If you tell other people to do that kind of emotional work so you don't have to revise your own behavior, you are an asshole.

[elengil]

Sure. If you do that kind of emotional work on yourself, you may grow as a human. But you never know what scars other people carry. If you tell other people to do that kind of emotional work so you don't have to revise your own behavior, you are an asshole.

Yes.

[RoseMorninStar]

Sure. If you do that kind of emotional work on yourself, you may grow as a human. But you never know what scars other people carry. If you tell other people to do that kind of emotional work so you don't have to revise your own behavior, you are an asshole.

I mostly agree Frelga. We would all be better to grow as humans, however sometimes there is an unhealthy negative power to entitled (false) righteous indignation "aggrieved entitlement" which can be taken too far on the other side of the equation. One such example: the Incel community who believe women withhold sex to which they feel entitled.

[Frelga]

Rose, I wouldn't tell the incel "community" to stop being upset, although I think they are full of it. It's just that I am okay with them continuing to be upset. Heck, I wouldn't even tell Richard Spencer to not be upset about the punch in the face he so richly deserved.

Upsetting and frustrating the right people is a moral obligation, in some cases. It is possibly one of the best measures of a person's character, how they make a choice of whom to upset.

[yovargas]

If you tell other people to do that kind of emotional work so you don't have to revise your own behavior, you are an asshole.

But sometimes, if you tell people to revise their own behavior so you don't have to do that kind of work, you are an asshole.

[Frelga]

If you tell other people to do that kind of emotional work so you don't have to revise your own behavior, you are an asshole.

But sometimes, if you tell people to revise their own behavior so you don't have to do that kind of work, you are an asshole.

You can ask other people to revise their behavior to protect yourself. You don't have to be an asshole about it. If you choose to be, that's up to you. What you can't do is ask other people to revise their feelings so you don't have to feel had about your actions.

[elengil]

Nothing falls into neat little categories where we can say X is ALWAYS bad, and Y is ALWAYS okay. Nothing. That means yes, we each have to examine the exact issue at hand every time to decide where it falls. Is it offensive and we just don't care? Is it not offensive but we choose not to do it anyway so as not to hurt others? Does it place unreasonable burdens on others, either to modify their behavior or suppress their feelings? And then, who gets to decide unreasonable?

I prefer to live my life in such a way that I attempt not to knowingly offend others. But then there are others whom I feel should be offended.

White people got all offended when black people wanted to drink from the same water fountain as they did. I do not consider that a 'feeling' worth coddling. Black people get offended when their right to exist in their own person, free from harm is brought up for debate. I do not consider that a debate that is justified having, not on an actual level, nor for intellectual exercises.

The problem is we only have so many words to describe things, so feeling offended that you are told to stop dehumanizing others and feeling offended that you are being dehumanized have a tendency to be labeled as equivalent, and they are not.

Being tolerant of others does not mean being tolerant of those who harm or hate others.

If we cannot accept that reality is nuanced, not a card catalog, then we are not as a society mature enough yet.

[yovargas]

The problem is we only have so many words to describe things, so feeling offended that you are told to stop dehumanizing others and feeling offended that you are being dehumanized have a tendency to be labeled as equivalent, and they are not.

Yesssss. Which is why, in my opinion, whether or not someone is offended is largely irrelevant in these discussions. The question so it shouldn't be "does this offend someone?", it should be "does this harm someone(s)?"

[Frelga]

IAWE

The problem is we only have so many words to describe things, so feeling offended that you are told to stop dehumanizing others and feeling offended that you are being dehumanized have a tendency to be labeled as equivalent, and they are not.

Yesssss. Which is why, in my opinion, whether or not someone is offended is largely irrelevant in these discussions. The question so it shouldn't be "does this offend someone?", it should be "does this harm someone(s)?"

That's a good start but who gets to decide that?

Take Japan. I've heard people say, "How wonderful that Americans want to learn about our rich and ancient culture."

I also heard people say, "You took my grandfather's farm and put his family into a camp, and my grandmother's family burned to ashes in Hiroshima. You don't get to be all kawaii now."

[Primula Baggins]

The problem is we only have so many words to describe things, so feeling offended that you are told to stop dehumanizing others and feeling offended that you are being dehumanized have a tendency to be labeled as equivalent, and they are not.

Yesssss. Which is why, in my opinion, whether or not someone is offended is largely irrelevant in these discussions. The question so it shouldn't be "does this offend someone?", it should be "does this harm someone(s)?"

This isn't such a clear line, yov. "Offense" is often used by offenders as a diminishing and sometimes condescending term for what their targets might justifiably call "harm." Emotional harm is harm.

I think it comes back to the thought process involved in "consent." Just as people have had to learn to let the person giving or not giving consent decide entirely whether it happens and what limits are on it, we have to let people decide for themselves whether they are offended and then treat that offense as legitimate, something that needs to be addressed. (As long as the cause of the offense actually occurred.)

[RoseMorninStar]

I do not comment to brush off thoughtless, offensive behavior, which is inexcusable, but I have seen it over & over; some call fowl for slights they perceive against themselves all the while they are intolerant of someone else OR they manufacture outrage as a false 'equivalent'.

I live next to a family who makes it their life's vocation to be eternally offended and outraged. They spend an incredible amount of time & energy in the attempt to force their ideas & beliefs on the community, the state. They are young earth creationists. They are well known (nation-wide) in their circle. I'm sure they feel 'harmed' by the heathen community that refuses to put the bible in the Science/History section of the public library (and consequently the science/history books belong in the 'fiction' section) and on & on ad nauseum. There is the 'war on Christmas/Christ' which they've waged through legal means in our community and our public schools. Evolution/Science as most understand it, is the ultimate evil. Mass shootings are due to belief in evolution, etc... There is no pleasing some people.

Being tolerant of others does not mean being tolerant of those who harm or hate others.

If we cannot accept that reality is nuanced, not a card catalog, then we are not as a society mature enough yet.

Yup.

Rose, I wouldn't tell the incel "community" to stop being upset, although I think they are full of it. It's just that I am okay with them continuing to be upset. Heck, I wouldn't even tell Richard Spencer to not be upset about the punch in the face he so richly deserved.

Upsetting and frustrating the right people is a moral obligation, in some cases. It is possibly one of the best measures of a person's character, how they make a choice of whom to upset.

I agree that upsetting/frustrating the right people is a moral obligation, one I am currently having great struggles with. I couldn't care less what the Incel community thinks. What I was trying to point out (and not doing a very good job) is that there is a dark side to outrage, perceived slights and what I'll call 'political correctness' (a term I have come to hate, given its misuse.) I do not want to speak for Alatar but I think that is what he was getting at. In the last couple of years people have misused 'political correctness' (which I have always understood as an attempt at politeness, civility, and an attempt at understanding the struggles of others) as a cart blanche for being cruel, rude, and 'aggrieved entitlement'. Or simply put, the 'I have the right to dismiss your concerns' movement.

Maybe I'll do better with a few examples (with the caveat that I'll be answering them to the best of MY ability as to what I currently believe is correct. Of course with enlightenment that is subject to change!):
Should someone be offended by:

A hairstyle one person does not feel another has the 'right' to wear given the appearance of their skin.
No. However, I there are likely exceptions as with 'blackface'. Should a black person be able to straighten their hair? (imo, yes) Should a white person be able to wear dreadlocks or an afro? (imo, yes) What about a mohawk? That is a bit trickier, isn't it?

The 'War on Christmas' No. There is no war on Christmas. People are free to celebrate (or not) the holiday any way they wish. What they cannot do is FORCE the celebration of their religion on others or force others to participate in their particular religious rituals. To me, this is a manufactured 'outrage' to force those who believe something else (or nothing else) to conform (crush) opposing ideas. It is not kind and it is mean-spirited and misguided, imo. And ironically, against the supposed 'spirit of the season'. This is cultural appropriation in reverse! The Dark Side.

I could give more examples, but I'd probably just get myself in trouble, so I'll stop here for now.