World News Thread

[RoseMorninStar]

I believe the increase in income inequality has a great deal to do with the rise of some of the issues. I'd have to do some reading & pondering to boil it down, but Frelga's thesis fits in there somewhere. Minimum wage where I live is $7.25/hour. It hasn't changed in 10 years!!

[yovargas]

I saw an article recently how the notion of 'LGBT-free zones' has been gaining popularity in Poland.

Why 'LGBT-free zones' are on the rise in Poland

I understand the notion of how economic anxiety can be fed into hate of "the other", and that probably is some part of what's happening in the world right now, but I have a hard time seeing anti-gay backlash fitting that M.O.

[elengil]

Yov, you are trying to draw a logical thread between the wrong things, IMO.

The cause and effect is not "something gays do makes me feel threatened, so we will persecute gays as a result." It is "I feel threatened - I don't know what the cause is or more importantly what the solution is, so in my threatened state I will lash out at anyone who I identify as significantly different from myself/those who others tell me to lash out at."

We are, at our core, animals. A frightened, trapped animal will fight against every threat - real or perceived - because they feel as if their very survival is at stake. So whether it is an innocent bystander, a real threat, or the person trying to help them, they can all become targets of fear/anger responses. If we can't (or refuse) to be persuaded by reason, we will then react as animals.

People aren't turning more anti-gay because there is some link between gayness and wealth insecurity, but because they are feeling so much more insecure, their natural response is to lash out at every "other" they see. Other faiths, other nationalities, other genders, other ethnicities, other sexualities, other political parties. Everything.

It's the rich man telling the poor man he is poor because of other poor men. (Or poor because of brown people, or poor because of women, or poor because of gays, or poor because of muslims, or poor because of liberals, or poor because of reasons, but certainly not because of the rich man who won't pay them fairly!)

[yovargas]

Okay, I could buy that if there was a reasonable answer to the basic question - what could caused a sharp sense of fearful insecurity globally, across so many disparate countries, all occuring at roughly the same time, all pointing towards similar "defend our traditions from The Other" boogeymen?

[elengil]

Okay, I could buy that if there was a reasonable answer to the basic question - what could caused a sharp sense of fearful insecurity globally, across so many disparate countries, all occuring at roughly the same time, all pointing towards similar "defend our traditions from The Other" boogeymen?

It feeds off itself.

So you have a war with refugees fleeing, which causes the politicians in the countries they're fleeing to to start pointing to them as a source of fear. You have mouthpieces talking about refugees or asylum seekers with terms like "swarms" and "infestations" and "bringing their diseases" - the famous 3 poisoned M&Ms comment - all things to dehumanize them as a group and raise fears about them. Equate them with terrorists and gangs, murderers and rapists and thieves.

Get one politician who won an election on that platform and it emboldens others - both those running and those voting. Spread enough lies that you are poor not because of bad government fiscal policies and run-rampant corporations, but because someone else is going to 'take your job' - whether by coming here or because it'll be sent oversees (which is why we need to pander to corporate greed! Or they'll move your job away!)

Promise you'll save their jobs from those "other" people - promise you'll bring coal back because that's more important than breathing - scare monger that you'll die waiting for a doctor if we go to universal health care. All these are carefully crafted talking points that are designed to instill fear and demonize others. Once that wave starts it builds on itself. It doesn't matter if it takes a year or 10 years, it will build and spill over and there is no one moment of change in the cause, only in the form the effect takes.

The news they watch isn't giving them the good news, it isn't even necessarily giving them the true news, it's giving them the news that will make them fear/build anger against the chosen targets.

A single election, or a sudden event, these can all ignite the fuels that have been building up. But that build up wasn't in that moment - that was just when it suddenly exploded.

[Inanna]

Okay, I could buy that if there was a reasonable answer to the basic question - what could caused a sharp sense of fearful insecurity globally, across so many disparate countries, all occuring at roughly the same time, all pointing towards similar "defend our traditions from The Other" boogeymen?

Yov, I can only speak for India. There is not some *new* anti-Islam feeling in India, it has always been there. Always. The party in power in the federal govt (the states have different dynamics) has always moved between the secular-and-more-western party and the home-grown-hindu party (and a gazillion regional parties' coalitions). The secular-western party is in a bloody shambles of their own making, and the homegrown-hindu party was really the only alternative two elections ago. With them getting the vote, they have been steadily getting bolder and bolder in their hindutva policies. Along with which, they have also made some good economic moves, and also some good "religious" moves (making the thrice-said muslim divorce illegal). The anti-corruption, and good economic moves were good enough for them to get a stronger majority this time... and now you see the even bolder moves towards a hindu state.

There is NO PC-culture in India. None. But what there is, is the same language being used as in the US: "aliens", "illegal aliens". Maybe there is a network effect happening here which is allowing cultures to copy the philosophies that work.

That said, it wasn't that long ago, when the British did the same to us. Not that long ago, where Americans feared gay people killing their culture. All this is cyclical, in some sense. So, trying to find a common cause for THIS time.... and then attributing it to THIS ONE THING is... delusional.

[yovargas]

I don't know the situation in India at all, but even if there is no "pc culture" in the western sense, I would be surprised if there wasn't cultural tug of war between "our culture's traditional values" and "we should modernize our culture's values" in *some* sense. I don't know what that would look like but I'd be surprised if it wasn't there in some form. And I would also be surprised if the people on each side of that tug of war hadn't gotten much louder and adamant in the last 10 years.

[Inanna]

Of course. That has always been there.

[Cerin]

I saw an article recently how the notion of 'LGBT-free zones' has been gaining popularity in Poland.

Why 'LGBT-free zones' are on the rise in Poland

I understand the notion of how economic anxiety can be fed into hate of "the other", and that probably is some part of what's happening in the world right now, but I have a hard time seeing anti-gay backlash fitting that M.O.

As I understand it, a backlash against the LGBT agenda isn't about economics, it's about religious belief. Religious people of a certain ilk for whom the bible is a directing force have seen in a very short time some basic biblical teachings being undermined by governments. There is marriage, which the bible defines a certain way; so to people who believe what the bible says about marriage, gay 'marriage' and the laws supporting it amount to a mockery of God. The same can be said now regarding the notion of 'transgender,' because the bible is also very clear on the subject of God creating Man as male and female. Merriam Webster declared 'they' to be the word of the year for last year because people are not wanting to be called 'he' or 'she' anymore but 'they.' It is another affront to biblical teaching and centuries old traditional understandings. For someone to whom biblical teaching is sacred, these changes amount to blasphemy. Think of something that you consider in a heartfelt way to be morally repugnant; then imagine how you would feel if the society around you was celebrating this behavior as enlightened and righteous and the courts were upholding that view, and you were made to submit publicly to declarations that offended you to your core. You might want some safe spaces where these prevailing understandings weren't being pressed upon you in the popular culture, or where you might avoid being fired for expressing what you believed was true, or where you might avoid being coerced into participating in what you believed was wrong.

[Inanna]

Or in other words - recognizing an oppressed minority as human makes people upset.

[elengil]

[Think of something that you consider in a heartfelt way to be morally repugnant;

For example, forced birth.

then imagine how you would feel if the society around you was celebrating this behavior as enlightened and righteous

We don't have to imagine - it is. I keep getting told regularly that forcing women to give birth is moral and righteous and enlightened and to allow them not to give birth is murder.

and the courts were upholding that view,

Yes, they are, slowly but surely. Forcing birth on women through the courts. They even just petitioned the Supreme Court to do so nation-wide.

and you were made to submit publicly to declarations that offended you to your core.

Like doctors being forced by law to perform certain medical procedures that cannot work and are dangerous, like re-implanting ectopic pregnancies, because law makers decided that they knew better than doctors.

You might want some safe spaces where these prevailing understandings weren't being pressed upon you in the popular culture,

We have had safe spaces against discrimination and hate for a while now, despite being ridiculed by largely right-wing people who think "fuck your feelings" is a good political stance and that safe spaces and trigger warnings were only for liberal snowflakes who had their poor widdle feewings hurt.

or where you might avoid being fired for expressing what you believed was true,

Like, I know my birth certificate says Bob but I really prefer you to call me Sara.

Like, I know all about your wife and your kids because you discuss them at work all the time but if I mention I have a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend suddenly I'm shoving my lifestyle down your throat.

or where you might avoid being coerced into participating in what you believed was wrong.

This is literally why liberals are doing what they are doing. Because we refuse to be coerced into participating into what we believe is morally wrong and reprehensible. Like active discrimination based on race, religion, ethnicity/nationality, sexuality, gender.

We don't have to imagine your hypothetical world, we have been living in it. Some of us have been living in it for generations upon generations.

[Inanna]

And now I love elengil too.

[Frelga]

Well, I love you both, so there.

Or in other words - recognizing an oppressed minority as human makes people upset.

Precisely.

[River]

I saw an article recently how the notion of 'LGBT-free zones' has been gaining popularity in Poland.

Why 'LGBT-free zones' are on the rise in Poland

I understand the notion of how economic anxiety can be fed into hate of "the other", and that probably is some part of what's happening in the world right now, but I have a hard time seeing anti-gay backlash fitting that M.O.

I suspect in the case of the LGBT it is, as Cerin already expressed, religious anxiety. How religion got so wrapped up in what people do with their genitals is probably another thread entirely.

[Túrin Turambar]

[Think of something that you consider in a heartfelt way to be morally repugnant;

For example, forced birth.

then imagine how you would feel if the society around you was celebrating this behavior as enlightened and righteous

We don't have to imagine - it is. I keep getting told regularly that forcing women to give birth is moral and righteous and enlightened and to allow them not to give birth is murder.

I think the analogy doesn't quite hold because there hasn't been some sort of seismic shift on views on abortion in the same way there have been on homosexuality. Cerin's point would apply if everyone for all of human history up until now had accepted legal termination, then in the past few decades there was a swing against it.

That said, I don't think the concerns with homosexuality are only tied to religion, as some alt-right types who talk most strongly about 'traditional values' aren't religious. There's clearly more to it.

[Frelga]

It is in accordance with the terms of the Frelga thesis. Note that in the US, the right is concerned with maintaining economic and therefore political power in the hands of white straight Christian males. Homosexuality and abortion are two issues where the ire of that group can be safely focused, since its members do not suffer from this persecution.

A campaign against greed or pride would not go over nearly as well.

[River]

That said, I don't think the concerns with homosexuality are only tied to religion, as some alt-right types who talk most strongly about 'traditional values' aren't religious. There's clearly more to it.

Yes and no. Judeo-Christian teachings and values have so thoroughly permeated Western cultures that they are, for lack of a better term, "traditional". Of course, these teachings and values are also pasted over the traditions of the cultures that converted, to the extent where it takes a scholar to tease apart what's really founded in religion and what's carried over from another belief system.

And, of course, when it comes to the alt-right/fascists, whatever they claim to stand for needs to be looked at with the according skepticism.

[Cerin]

Or in other words - recognizing an oppressed minority as human makes people upset.

No, that isn't it at all.

If the point here is for yovargas to understand why Poland is having LGBT-free zones, your perspective (the quote above) doesn't help. Poland is not having LGBT-free zones because Polish people are upset about an oppressed minority being recognized as human.

Poland is having LGBT-free zones because Polish people are upset about sin -- things their church teaches them are wrong -- being exalted and celebrated in their society. (I trust it is understood that I'm offering my understanding of why these zones would be springing up in a country that has a largely religious population; I'm not claiming to speak for the Polish people.)

[elengil]

Cerin's point would apply if everyone for all of human history up until now had accepted legal termination, then in the past few decades there was a swing against it..

That's... kind of what happened, yes. Women took or were given all sorts of stuff to cause abortions in history, it was sort of just a part of life. It may not have always been well looked upon, but it wasn't usually criminalized, especially in early pregnancy. There was a distinction made in many eras between early and late pregnancy as being when the baby could be felt moving and kicking.

Losing a pregnancy was common enough that it was hard to prove if it was purposeful or not - and anyway, the stuff they took wasn't fool-proof so even if one tried it didn't always succeed.

Modern medicine both made it possible to know a woman had been pregnant, and to know it early enough, and possible to get a surgical abortion that wasn't left to a degree of chance. It also made it possible to therefore outlaw the practice.

[River]

Poland is having LGBT-free zones because Polish people are upset about sin -- things their church teaches them are wrong -- being exalted and celebrated in their society. (I trust it is understood that I'm offering my understanding of why these zones would be springing up in a country that has a largely religious population; I'm not claiming to speak for the Polish people.)

If this thesis is correct, then Poland is headed for the place where the Spanish Inquisition and expulsion of the Jews and the expulsion of the Protestants from France came from.

I suspect, though, that there's a soupcon of nationalism thrown into the situation in Poland. I suspect this because, in Europe, nationality and religious identity are deeply intertwined. Exhibit A: the remnants of Yugoslavia.