Impeachment

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Anyone else listening to this? Amb. Taylor is incredibly compelling. At least to me.

[Frelga]

To me as well, and I am more familiar with the background he provided than most Americans.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I can only imagine how this all makes you feel, Frelga.

Apparently the GOP line (as per both "White House Press Secretary Who Never Briefs the Press" Stephanie Grisham and former "Freedom Caucus" chairman Mark Meadows is that the hearing is "so boring." Meadows went so far as to say he was having trouble staying awake. That perhaps says more about him than about the hearing!

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[RoseMorninStar]

Why wouldn't I?

I know you were looking forward to hearing today's testimony, and, given your profession I can only imagine how intensely interesting you might find it.

Frelga, I know you are from Eastern Europe, but I'm not sure exactly where.. are you originally from Ukraine? I know Ukrainians have struggled with their identity and autonomy, as have many Eastern European countries/peoples (such as the Ruthenians, who have no country of their own).

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Rose, there are plenty of things I lose sleep over; this is not one of them! I am intensely interested in the proceedings, but they do not directly impact me and mine (except on the level that they impact all Americans).

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[yovargas]

Also - none of this will matter or change anything so it's not worth losing any sleep over.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't completely agree with that, yov, though I understand where you are coming from. It certainly seems highly unlikely that this will lead to Trump's removal from office (though it still isn't impossible). However, it is likely that the process will have some impact on whether he is reelected. Whether that is a net positive impact or a net negative impact remains to be seen. On a more philosophical level, the process matters because it is standing up for the proposition that abusing the office of the president is not okay, and won't be tolerated. On that level, the process matters, even if it has no practical impact.

Meanwhile, much as it pains me to say it, I think the GOP line of "boring, boring, boring" could potentially be a successful tactic. To me the hearings are anything but boring, but to the general public? I'm not sure that they want to pay attention, so this line perhaps gives them an out not to.

[RoseMorninStar]

. On a more philosophical level, the process matters because it is standing up for the proposition that abusing the office of the president is not okay, and won't be tolerated. On that level, the process matters, even if it has no practical impact.

This is an important point.. or at least should be the most important point. If it's OK for Trump to do this, is it OK for all presidents going forward? If so, we have truly lost our principles and our way as a country.

Meanwhile, much as it pains me to say it, I think the GOP line of "boring, boring, boring" could potentially be a successful tactic. To me the hearings are anything but boring, but to the general public? I'm not sure that they want to pay attention, so this line perhaps gives them an out not to.

I hope not. Every time I hear that (and I'm realize I am not the audience they are targeting with that message) I think.. these people refuse to do their jobs for this country. For all of us. If they cannot at least treat this seriously they should pack up and go home. They have no defense and that is why they cannot treat it seriously.

[Frelga]

What Rose said. Who among us has the luxury of showing up at work and refusing to do our job because it's "boring"?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I expected Ambassador Taylor to be a good witness. What I didn't expect was that he would present new information not previously revealed that directly implicated Mr. Trump.

Impeachment hearing testimony further connects President to Ukraine pressure

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[yovargas]

A defense from Republicans that I have not heard until today as the idea that there couldn't have been any quid pro quo because Ukraine eventually got the aid money without ever starting an investigation into Biden. It's a pretty clever defense strategy, and I suspect it's one that will be convincing to a fair number of people. The Democratic counter-argument that attempted bribery is still bribery doesn't sound as dramatic from that angle I don't think.

[RoseMorninStar]

What is missing from that defense is the aid money to Ukraine was released due to the release of the Whistleblower report which forced their hand. The CNN interview Trump wanted was already set up for the Ukraine president I believe for the following day(?). The Whistleblower report put the brake on all of Trump's plans, that's probably why he'd like to wring the neck of whomever it is. They almost got away with it.

A gun held to the head of a cashier at the bank is still a crime even if the robbery is interrupted by the cops.

[yovargas]

So.... what was the point of the Yovarg....I mean Yovanovitch testimony?

[Sunsilver]

It showed that there are still public servants out there who put the interests of their country ahead of an increasingly corrupt government that cares for nothing but the personal interests of its politicians and their billionaire friends.

And it repeats a very common story we've come to hear over and over again: valuable, capable people being removed from office because they refuse to put the president's interests ahead of the well-being of their country. This has gutted many departments in the government, as many of those let go have not been replaced, or if they have been replaced it's with people who have no business holding the position, and who only got the job because they are willing to kiss Trump's nether regions!

God, I am SO sick of this!!

[elengil]

valuable, capable people being removed from office because they refuse to put the country's interests ahead of the president's.

Surely you meant that the other way around

[Sunsilver]

Of course...

[Frelga]

AP:

BREAKING: Louisiana’s John Bel Edwards stuns GOP, wins reelection to a second term as the Deep South’s only Democratic governor.

NPR:
After Recanvass, Kentucky Gov. Matt Bevin Concedes Race To Democrat Andy Beshear

Trump campaigned heavily for both Republican candidates, telling the crowd at Bevin's rally “If you lose, it sends a really bad message … you can’t let that happen to me.” (WaPo)

There were other surprising wins for Democrats in local elections, suggesting that there is no voter backlash against impeachment.

[yovargas]

Thought these poll numbers were very interesting:

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[RoseMorninStar]

It's unfortunate that the poll is so skewed by party. The evidence is overwhelming. It bothers me that what would be (understandably) unacceptable by the 'other' party would be acceptable by one's own. I am also troubled that it was seemingly so easy to remove/sideline/override people who were in place to prevent this sort of thing from happening. The revolving door at the White House for top positions is a huge red flag that all is not as it should be.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The likely biggest moment of the impeachment is about to happen.

Or maybe it will be a big fizzle.