Impeachment

[RoseMorninStar]

I am very confused.

Unfortunately, it's not very confusing, really. A bunch of old guys at the top level of our government were distributing long debunked crazy propaganda, misinformation, and conspiracy theories in order to hurt political rivals and hold on to power at any costs, even at the cost of our democracy. It's looking as if Giuliani may have consulted Manafort in prison and maybe that is the original source. Geez louise.

"These documents also reinforce concern that the president and his allies sought to use the machinery of the State Department to further the President’s personal political interests," the three House chairmen said.

“The briefing and documents raise troubling questions about apparent efforts inside and outside the Trump Administration to target specific officials, including former Vice President Joe Biden’s son and then-U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Masha Yovanovitch, who was abruptly removed as Ambassador in May after a sustained campaign against her by the President’s agent, Rudy Giuliani," the three chairmen wrote. They are: House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff, D-Calif., House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Eliot Engel, D-N.Y., and House Oversight and Reform Committee Chairman Elijah Cummings, D-Md."

The lunacy and incompetence is mind-blowing and downright frightening. It would be a comedy (keystone cops) if it were not a tragedy.

[River]

yov, when this becomes a mini-series, I think the Coen brothers should be involved. This is turning into the DC version of a Fargo plot.

Jamie Raskin from the judiciary committee.(?) It's seems to be intended to sabotage the US ambassador to Ukraine. Unless I am misunderstanding something.

Stuff is breaking so fast one can't keep up with it.

No, I think you're right. There was an effort from outside the State Department to sabotage the ambassador and, while it ultimately succeeded, people within the department went on record crying foul (those cries were in the packet the IG gave to Congress).

[RoseMorninStar]

What it all boils down to is that Putin/Russia wants sanctions lifted because there is a ton of money to make off of their oil & gas. If they can discredit that Russia interfered in our elections and place the blame on Ukraine, and if they can get Ukraine to cede the part of the country Russia invaded, Putin believes US sanctions will be lifted & Russia will be welcomed back into the G7/8. Which leads one to ask, what does Putin have on Trump (Manafort, Giuliani, Pompeo, Barr, etc..) that they are willing to betray their country to do Putin's bidding?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

And who did Rudy get at least some of the information from? Everyone's favorite convict!

Giuliani consulted with Manafort on Ukraine info: report

Sent from my LG G6 using Tapatalk

[RoseMorninStar]

'Round & round it goes.. where it stops.. we all know.. Russia, Russia, Russia. It's a one act play with all the familiar characters.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I missed that the chairman of the key investigating committees pu out a statement about the material:

“The briefing and documents raise troubling questions about apparent efforts inside and outside the Trump Administration to target specific officials, including former Vice President Joe Biden’s son and then-U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Masha Yovanovitch, who was abruptly removed as Ambassador in May after a sustained campaign against her by the President’s agent, Rudy Giuliani.

The documents provided by the Inspector General included a package of disinformation, debunked conspiracy theories, and baseless allegations in an envelope marked ‘White House’ and containing folders labeled ‘Trump Hotel.’ These documents also reinforce concern that the President and his allies sought to use the machinery of the State Department to further the President’s personal political interests."
— Joint statement from the Chairmen of the House Intelligence Committee, Committee on Foreign Affairs and Committee on Oversight and Reform.

State Dept. watchdog highlights suspect documents in Ukraine hearing

Sent from my LG G6 using Tapatalk

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Meanwhile,

Only 40% of Republicans believe Trump asked Ukraine to investigate Biden, even though he admitted that he did

Sent from my LG G6 using Tapatalk

[RoseMorninStar]

Meanwhile,

Only 40% of Republicans believe Trump asked Ukraine to investigate Biden, even though he admitted that he did

I find extremely problematic and I lay this, in part, at the feet of FOX news for misleading and failing to adequately inform their viewers. I read an article about Paul Ryan and his new position on the board of FOX news. He has been urging the powers that be to "do something" about Trump & pivot away from their (overtly, misleading and biased*) coverage of him.
(But) opposing factions at FOX say:

.. a person more sympathetic to Trump has told Lachlan that Fox should remain loyal to Trump’s supporters, even if the network has to break from the man. “We need to represent our viewers,” the source said. “Fox is about defending our viewers from the people who hate them. That’s where our power comes from. It’s not about Trump.”

I find that quote extremely awful because it's one thing to represent their viewers (be they Republican, Democrat, Left/Right, Christian, or what have you) and outright misinforming viewers and acting as a firewall to important news that doesn't fit their narrative. Fox is not "defending viewers from people who hate them" they are creating a problem by not doing their job in presenting 'fair and balanced' truth in journalism and reporting. It's no wonder their viewers don't see some of this coming. FOX is responsible and culpable for informing their viewers, even if that includes a right or left point of view.

*my words

[Frelga]

From the "somehow not the Onion" department

Trump tweets clip inserting photo of Bidens and Ukrainian gas executive into Nickelback video

[RoseMorninStar]

Unfortunately I couldn't open the photo/video, but the comments were hilarious. So this is what passes for presidential proclamations these days

Edited to add: I guess the band, Nickelback, complained and it was taken down.

[yovargas]

Meanwhile,

Only 40% of Republicans believe Trump asked Ukraine to investigate Biden, even though he admitted that he did

I wonder what percentage believe Biden tried to blackmail Ukraine for personal gain.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Meanwhile, I was wondering about this when I first read the transcript.

Odd markings, ellipses fuel doubts about the ‘rough transcript’ of Trump’s Ukraine call

[RoseMorninStar]

Congress needs to see what's in that codeword protected server.

[Dave_LF]

Now Trump is calling for China to investigate the Bidens:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/03/us/p ... idens.html

The man is not right in the head. Maybe Congress should just remove him under 25 and avoid some of the political fallout.

[elengil]

Now Trump is calling for China to investigate the Bidens:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/03/us/p ... idens.html

The man is not right in the head. Maybe Congress should just remove him under 25 and avoid some of the political fallout.

uh... under 25 what?

Besides, the volatile nature of this entire thing demands Democrats do absolutely everything as 'by the book' as possible. Not that it will appease some, but it gives them less ammunition to cry foul. I, for one, am very interested in all that the investigation is going to bring to light.

[Dave_LF]

The 25th amendment. GOP senators who could not justify impeaching him to their voters might be able to make some headway with "we love the guy, but he's got dementia now."

[elengil]

The 25th amendment. GOP senators who could not justify impeaching him to their voters might be able to make some headway with "we love the guy, but he's got dementia now."

Forgive me, I really don't understand how you're applying that. I thought the 25th applied only to the line of succession, I don't have any understanding of it giving Congress the right to remove a president??

[Dave_LF]

It does that, but also gives Congress the power to remove the President if s/he is deemed incapable of fulfilling the duties of the office.

Actually, now that I read it, it grants that power to the officers of the Executive Branch; not to Congress, who only get involved if the President challenges the action. So not likely to happen.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yes, not going to happen.

So former special envoy to Ukraine Kurt Volker had his deposition taken today, and the initial reports were all from Republicans saying that his testimony did not support the Democrats impeachment narrative (though it is hard to imagine what he would say that could undo the fact that the President has flat out admitted that he asked Ukraine (and now China!) to investigate one of his main political rivals because of unfounded allegations. Now the reports are starting to come out about what Volker said, and it is hard to understand how the Republicans claim that it doesn't support the impeachment narrative.

Giuliani was warned that Ukrainian claims of Bidens’ misconduct were not credible, Trump’s ex-envoy tells lawmakers

And then there is this bombshell from Fox News:

Ex-Ukraine envoy Volker meets with lawmakers amid impeachment probe, as texts reveal ‘quid pro quo’ dispute

Meanwhile, new encrypted text messages obtained by Fox News show Volker and other U.S. officials battling internally last month over whether Trump was engaged in a "quid pro quo" with Ukraine as he pressed for the country to look into the Biden family, while holding back U.S. aid. The texts with Volker, U.S. Ambassador to the EU Gordon Sondland and Chargé d’Affaires of the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine Bill Taylor indicate that the nature of a potential arrangement between the U.S. and Ukraine was a matter of dispute.
"As I said on the phone, I think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign," Taylor said in a text exchange.
Sondland responded by saying that was not what was happening. "Bill, I believe you are incorrect about President Trump's intentions. The President has been crystal clear: no quid pro quo's of any kind. The President is trying to evaluate whether Ukraine is truly going to adopt the transparency and reforms that President Zelensky promised during his campaign."
Both men then agreed to cease discussing the matter over text, noting that phone calls with the appropriate officials would be preferable.

It is unclear when these texts were sent, but presumably it was before the whitleblower complaint and the transcript were publicly revealed, the Chargé d’Affaires of the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine is saying " it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign." Yes, the other fellow pushes back against that idea, but already at that time it was clear to high level diplomat (I believe the highest level diplomat in the Ukraine since the ambassador was recalled and she was never replaced) unambiguously stating that the president was asking for a quid pro quo. That is stunning.

ETA: Sondland, the diplomat who pushed back on the idea that it was a quid pro quo, was a financial backer of the Trump inaugural committee, so not exactly an unbiased observer. And Taylor was formerly Ambassador to Ukraine from 2006-2009, and a graduate of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point and Harvard University’s John F. Kennedy School of Government. I would say that he is going to be a pretty main witness in the impeachment inquiry.

[elengil]

it is hard to understand how the Republicans claim that it doesn't support the impeachment narrative.

Is it? The "total exoneration" party rhetoric still surprises you?

They will say whatever they have to to spin public opinion to make themselves/Trump into the politically persecuted victims of Democratic inability to "get over" the 2016 election. They will support Trump to spite everyone else until the very end and continually use this to prove how badly they're treated.