2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

[Dave_LF]

Here's a link. This was on live TV, apparently, and the only other print source I see now is the paywalled NYT.

https://amp.azcentral.com/amp/6614177002

[elengil]

Well, just found this

https://www.salon.com/2021/01/11/qanon- ... t_partner/

[N.E. Brigand]

A Republican Congressman from Pennsylvania has introduced a motion to censure President Trump "for attempting to unlawfully overturn the 2020 Presidential election and for violating his oath of office on January 6th, 2021."

Censure would have been the appropriate punishment for Bill Clinton. It's not nearly enough for this. It's a play to stave off impeachment while pretending to be serious. Even so, it's not nothing.

[N.E. Brigand]

Huh. Rootin' tootin' Congresswoman Boebert was refusing to go through the metal detector or let security search her bag before entering the House tonight.

And another Congressman just said he thinks the metal detectors are unconstitutional.

Are we about to find out that a number of Republicans have been violating D.C. firearms laws?

And another one! "Another member — I believe it was Russ Fulcher — just pushed his way through. He went through the metal detector, set it off, ran into a cop, and then pushed his way past her."

- - - - - - - - - -

On a different note, I haven't thought about William Henry Harrison since February 2017.

[N.E. Brigand]

Ted Cruz?!

(It's probably nothing more than a desperate fan. I think Cruz is horrible, but he's not stupid enough to get mixed up in anything like this. He was cynically trying to use the situation, betting on Trumpism as the future of the Republican Party.)

[elengil]

Ted Cruz?!

What about?

[RoseMorninStar]

Among other things I've been hearing, House Majority Whip James Clyburn Believes Someone Knew About Capitol Hill Attack From Inside

Also, the FBI sent a report to the WH/authorities a day or so before the attack suggesting there were going to be 'war' at the Capitol and it was ignored.

[N.E. Brigand]

Ted Cruz?!

What about?

One of the arrested rioters had Cruz's contact information on him -- but it appears to be publicly available phone numbers.

Meanwhile, Mike Pence has informed Congress officially that he won't invoke the 25th Amendment.

[Dave_LF]

Hakeem Jeffries says Don Jr is under criminal investigation in DC. He didn't say what for.

[N.E. Brigand]

Huh. Rootin' tootin' Congresswoman Boebert was refusing to go through the metal detector or let security search her bag before entering the House tonight.

And another Congressman just said he thinks the metal detectors are unconstitutional.

Are we about to find out that a number of Republicans have been violating D.C. firearms laws?

And another one! "Another member — I believe it was Russ Fulcher — just pushed his way through. He went through the metal detector, set it off, ran into a cop, and then pushed his way past her."

- - - - - - - - - -

On a different note, I haven't thought about William Henry Harrison since February 2017.

"Louie Gohmert just walked around the magnetometer. 'You can’t stop me; I’m on my way to a vote,' he said as he passed the cops."

[Dave_LF]

Pence's argument against the 25th is reasonable and well-stated. It's above my pay grade to judge whether he's *right*, but if he's wrong, he's at least wrong within normal parameters.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Hakeem Jeffries says Don Jr is under criminal investigation in DC. He didn't say what for.

https://www.pix11.com/news/national-new ... fries-says

[N.E. Brigand]

Pence's argument against the 25th is reasonable and well-stated. It's above my pay grade to judge whether he's *right*, but if he's wrong, he's at least wrong within normal parameters.

Dunno. Seems to me that if you attempt to kill the Vice President, you've demonstrated that you're incompetent to hold the office of the Presidency.

To be fair, Pence's letter does say that Trump pressured him to violate the Constitution.

- - - - - - - - - -

Speaking of which, the New York Times has new reporting on Trump's efforts to get Pence to throw out electoral votes. Hear now the words of the President of the United States to the Vice President:

"You can either go down in history as a patriot, or you can go down in history as a p***y."

[RoseMorninStar]

Pence's argument against the 25th is reasonable and well-stated. It's above my pay grade to judge whether he's *right*, but if he's wrong, he's at least wrong within normal parameters.

Dunno. Seems to me that if you attempt to kill the Vice President, you've demonstrated that you're incompetent to hold the office of the Presidency.

I dunno.. seems to me that if the vice president has to spend hours, multiple times, explaining to the president why he can't just overturn the election you're not incompetent to hold the office of president.

[Dave_LF]

The argument was that the 25th is there for cases where the President is *medically* unable to execute the office. There's no question in my mind that Trump deserves to be shown the door, but is the 25th the way to do it.

[elengil]

This is where I ask do we rely on the actual text to determine that, or are we pulling from other historic documents to decide what they 'meant' by what they wrote?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Pence's argument against the 25th is reasonable and well-stated. It's above my pay grade to judge whether he's *right*, but if he's wrong, he's at least wrong within normal parameters.

I agree with this (in fact I just said a similar thing to my partner). The 25th Amendment simply isn't designed for a situation like this, it is designed for a situation where a president has become incapacitied and "is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office." You can argue that Trump is so mentally ill that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and probably make a pretty good argument, but that is not really what is being argued.

[Túrin Turambar]

Pence's argument against the 25th is reasonable and well-stated. It's above my pay grade to judge whether he's *right*, but if he's wrong, he's at least wrong within normal parameters.

I agree with this (in fact I just said a similar thing to my partner). The 25th Amendment simply isn't designed for a situation like this, it is designed for a situation where a president has become incapacitied and "is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office." You can argue that Trump is so mentally ill that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and probably make a pretty good argument, but that is not really what is being argued.

I also thought Pence's letter was reasonable. I think it's good practice to read provisions granting extraordinary powers narrowly rather than broadly. Trump would not now be found to be under legal incapacity for any other reason. For example, if he entered into a contract, it would be valid.

[N.E. Brigand]

Pence's argument against the 25th is reasonable and well-stated. It's above my pay grade to judge whether he's *right*, but if he's wrong, he's at least wrong within normal parameters.

Dunno. Seems to me that if you attempt to kill the Vice President, you've demonstrated that you're incompetent to hold the office of the Presidency.

To be fair, Pence's letter does say that Trump pressured him to violate the Constitution.

- - - - - - - - - -

Speaking of which, the New York Times has new reporting on Trump's efforts to get Pence to throw out electoral votes. Hear now the words of the President of the United States to the Vice President:

"You can either go down in history as a patriot, or you can go down in history as a p***y."

At heart, it's a puff piece about Pence doing the right thing last Wednesday. For example:

"But no matter what comes next, he will always be remembered for one moment. 'We’re very lucky that the vice president isn’t a maniac,' said Joe Grogan, Mr. Trump’s domestic policy adviser until last year. 'In many ways, I think it vindicates the decision of Mike Pence to hang in there this long.'"

But that's just silly.

Mike Pence was the one person that Donald Trump could not fire. The only way to remove a Vice President before his or her term ends is by impeachment and conviction. Pence had one job: to be capable of stepping in for Trump if Trump, for whatever reason, was no longer President. If Pence at any point before last week believed Trump was acting wrongly, he could say so. There was no moral incentive to stay quiet. The worst that Trump could do was pick someone else as his running mate. Pence stuck around because Trump couldn't force him to quit and it was good politics for Pence to stick around and be the loyal servant. He only finally did the right thing when there was no clear way out.

My view is that 300,000 Americans are dead because Donald Trump's mental state rendered him incapable of carrying out his duties. Is impeachment the better path in such a case? Maybe. But Trump's mental incompetence has been clear to any reasonable observer for years, and Pence could see that removal via impeachment wasn't happening, so he let those 300,000 Americans die rather than invoke the 25th Amendment because he hoped that by being loyal to Trump he'd later get to run for President.

I will admit that Pence's letter tonight may be part of an agreement with Pelosi, so that the House can say he forced their hand.

[Túrin Turambar]

As far as I know, no medical professional has advised Pence that Trump is mentally incapable of carrying out the office of President. And I don't see how Pence can be expected to have the expertise to make that call himself. A disastrous presidency can't be taken as proof of a mentally-incapable president - many perfectly sane people make a mess of a job. I agree with Dave and Voronwë that Pence is correct.