Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

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Post by Sassafras »

Disclaimer: All of these questions are the not-yet-well-formulated result of trying to find a logical explanation for the inclusion of the Tale of Adanel in the Athrabeth. It's voice and tenor appear (to me) to be contradictory and almost diametrically opposed to Tolkien's typical philosophy.


The first question that comes to my mind is … why did he feel it necessary to write this at all?

I am unable to decide where or, better, how the Tale of Adanel fits into the Athrabeth Although I know it must form at least some the basis for Andreth's bitterness. She must believe that Aegnor’s rejection was entirely due to her mortality, her short life-span. It must fit somehow because it was first alluded to in the text itself and then expanded in the after notes. Did Tolkien feel Andreth’s refusal to elaborate on the mortality of Men was a deliberate ploy (to what end?) or representative of a genuine confusion of her part about death?

As already noted by others… the voice with which the tale of Adanel is told doesn’t quite fit. It presents Eru in a very old testament, biblical, judgmental light: a harsh, jealous and vengeful deity. A God to fear, to tremble at His displeasure. Not kind or loving or forgiving at all.

The tone of the tale makes me uncomfortable.

….I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.


Is it possible that the Tale was written while Tolkien was in a kind of despair over close friends lost in WWI? That its darkness spoke to his feelings which must have been that of the enormous waste of young life cut down in a senseless war. I haven’t searched much for Tolkien’s views on the justification for the Great War but today we know it was a complex combination of nationalism and political alliances. Did he believe the propaganda that all England was subjected to by the newspapers? Did he honestly believe that the Kaiser (cousin to Edward VII) was the spawn of Satan and the ‘Hun’ were orcs personified as they allegedly raped and pillaged their way across Europe?

Instead of being just an account of Tolkien's abbreviated combat service, John Garth’s Tolkien and the Great War fleshes out Thomas Shippey's claim that Tolkien was part of a generation of "traumatized authors" who attempted to express the horrors of World War I through the writing of fantasy. Garth believes that Tolkien’s experience in the Great War, and in particular the loss of two of his closest friends at the Battle of Somme, had a profound effect on the mythology he invented. He argues that without the catalyst of World War I, Tolkien might have not written at all, or might have developed into nothing more than a pale imitation of William Morris. Tolkien’s mythology, he writes, was born on the battlefields of World War I, and that is why Middle-earth "looks so engagingly familiar to us and speaks to us so eloquently, because it was born with the modern world and marked by the same terrible birth pangs."

Did Tolkien struggle to reconcile his faith with the harsh and unforgiving reality of death … which comes too soon and seems so unfair and so inexplicable.


Would we have had the Tale of Adanel at all if Tolkien had not been a combat soldier in the Great War?
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Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:


"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.
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Post by vison »

No. We wouldn't.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Sassafras wrote:Disclaimer: All of these questions are the not-yet-well-formulated result of trying to find a logical explanation for the inclusion of the Tale of Adanel in the Athrabeth. It's voice and tenor appear (to me) to be contradictory and almost diametrically opposed to Tolkien's typical philosophy.
But as I pointed out earlier, the Tale is most definitively not part of the Athrabeth. I think that is of critical importance. The Athrabeth, like most of the the stores of the Elder Days, is very much a part of Eldarin lore, infused with the wisdom and greater understanding of the first born. The Tale of Adanel, on the other hand, is not at all part of that lore. Tolkien makes it very clear that in contrast to the the Athrabeth itself (not to mention the Quenta Silmarillion, the Valaquenta, the Ainulindalë, and even the Akallabêth, this tale is part of the lore of men. It is not meant to be taken as "truth" as in a true depiction of what Eru did to mankind, but rather as a glimpse into how mankind was led astray the result of, as Tolkien put it in the Silmarillion, how "Melkor has cast his shadow upon it [the Gift of Death], and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope."

To put it another, perhaps more succinct way, the Tale isn't meant to show what really happened, it is meant to show how Man's perspective about what really happened got warped.
The first question that comes to my mind is … why did he feel it necessary to write this at all?
That's easy for me to answer, after saying what I just said. He wrote it show how distorted from the truth Mankind's perspective became, even early in its existence.
I am unable to decide where or, better, how the Tale of Adanel fits into the Athrabeth Although I know it must form at least some the basis for Andreth's bitterness. She must believe that Aegnor’s rejection was entirely due to her mortality, her short life-span. It must fit somehow because it was first alluded to in the text itself and then expanded in the after notes.
Again, it doesn't fit because it is not really a part of the Athrabeth.

As I quote earlier, Tolkien explicitly states this:

The legend bears certain resemblances to the Númenórean traditions concerning the part played by Sauron in the downfall of Númenor. But this does not prove that it is entirely a fiction of post-downfall days. It is no doubt mainly derived from actual lore of the People of Marach, quite independent of the Athrabeth
As already noted by others… the voice with which the tale of Adanel is told doesn’t quite fit. It presents Eru in a very old testament, biblical, judgmental light: a harsh, jealous and vengeful deity. A God to fear, to tremble at His displeasure. Not kind or loving or forgiving at all.
If what I am saying is true (and I think it is), what does this say about Tolkien's opinion about Mankind's perspective about the nature of God as opposed to the true nature of God? :shock:
The tone of the tale makes me uncomfortable.
I believe that it is meant to make you (the general you) uncomfortable.
….I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.
But again, this should not be considered a description of what really happened, but rather the distorted picture of what really happened that Men had after Melkor cast his shadow upon the Gift of Death, and confounded it with darkness.
Is it possible that the Tale was written while Tolkien was in a kind of despair over close friends lost in WWI? That its darkness spoke to his feelings which must have been that of the enormous waste of young life cut down in a senseless war.
Well, I do think we have to keep in mind that this material was written much later in Tolkien's life - after living through the second world war as well as the first, so I don't think that he was consciously in despair over losing his close friends in the trenches at that point (though he certainly was when he first started drafting the Lost Tales). But I certainly think that Tolkien's perspective was most profoundly influenced by his early losses, both of his parents during his childhood and his horrific experiences and loss of close friends in the first world war. I largely agree with John Garth's opinion as you describe it.
Did Tolkien struggle to reconcile his faith with the harsh and unforgiving reality of death … which comes too soon and seems so unfair and so inexplicable.
Absolutely. And I think the importance of the Tale of Adanel is that it is one of the few places where Tolkien allows that struggle to be reflected in his writings.
Would we have had the Tale of Adanel at all if Tolkien had not been a combat soldier in the Great War?
No.

But nor would we have the rest of Tolkien's legendarium, in my opinion. But that probably should be the subject of a separate thread.
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Post by scirocco »

Well put, Voronwë.
Sassafras wrote:Is it possible that the Tale was written while Tolkien was in a kind of despair over close friends lost in WWI? That its darkness spoke to his feelings which must have been that of the enormous waste of young life cut down in a senseless war.
Not directly, I think, due to the timing, as Voronwë points out, and "An author cannot of course remain wholly unaffected by his experience, but the ways in which a story-germ uses the soil of experience are extremely complex, and attempts to define the process are at best guesses from evidence that is inadequate and ambiguous..."

Despite that, :D, Tolkien was 67 when he wrote the Athrabeth; his own three-score years and ten were approaching, and he cannot have been unaware of his (and Edith's) impending mortality (although in the event they both lived more than a decade longer). Who knows how much of that must have contributed to his writing at that period, or what difficulty he may have had in maintaining his own fiction of Death as Gift in the face of the reality of "the gift of the One to Men (which) it is bitter to receive".
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

One of the key concepts discussed in the commentary and notes that follow the Athrabeth is the idea that "the separation of fëa and hröa is 'unnatural', and proceeds not from the original design but from the 'Marring of Arda', which is due to the operations of Melkor." For one thing, this demonstrates just how powerful Melkor was, suggesting as it does that Melkor truly did have the ability to alter Eru's original design. But setting aside that thorny issue ( ;) ), looking at the different ways that this 'unnatural' separation of body and soul (so to speak) effects the two races of the Children of Eru.

As to men, Tolkien points out that Finrod comes to believe that the true disaster that befell Men was not (as Men themselves seemed to believe) that they had become mortal (for if they had truly been immortal as were the Elves, then they would have BEEN Elves), but rather that the marring of Arda resulted in the fear of death because it led to death leading to the the severance of the fëa and hröa. Tolkien suggests that "the fëa of unfallen Man would taken with it its hröa into the new made of existence (free from Time).

Whereas, the Elves have a different, and more complicated fate. The 'unnatural' separation of the fëa and of hröa of the Elves takes place over a long period of time.
They eventually eventually become housed, if it can be called that, not in actual visible and tangible hröar, but only in the memory of the fëa of its bodily form, and its desire for it; and therefore not dependent for mere existence upon the material of Arda. But they appear to have held, and indeed still to hold, that this desire for the hröa shows that their later (and present) condition is not natural to them.
Interestingly, "the Elves believed that the fëar of dead Men also went to Mandos without choice in the matter: their free will with regard to death was taken away). There they waited until they were surrendered to Eru." The Elves, on the other hand, "were given a choice, because Eru did not allow their free will to be taken away" (as to whether they remained 'houseless' or were 'rehoused in the same form and shape as they had had'). It is difficult to sustain the contention that has been put forth, I therefore would argue, that Men were given more free will then were the Elves. (It should be noted that Tolkien does point to the special examples of mortals who were allowed to pass over to Tol Eressëa (Frodo and Bilbo, and presumably Sam) and were thus give "an opportunity for dying according to the original plan for the unfallen: they went to state in which they could acquire greater knowledge and peace of mind, and being healed of all hurts both of mind and body, could at last surrender themselves: die of free will." He also points out that Aragorn was able to achieve this even without such aid.)

More thoughts later, particularly about the respective roles that the two kindreds are envisioned playing in the healing or redemption of Arda ('Arda Re-Made').
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I'm bumping this thread in honor of our newest member, Andreth. :)
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Post by Andreth »

Thank you Voronwë! I did take my screen name from that story. I use Saelind on another board. I do hope I have a "Wise-heart". :)

I need to re-read this before commenting much.

I will say that I expect it will read differently now. My father passed away in August 2006. He was only 64 and in good health until a brain tumor took him in 5 months. I am working through the grieving process. I am a Christian, Catholic, actually, hope/despair/death and deathlessness have become real questions rather than abstract thoughts. And I am sure I am not the only one this has happened to. So, I do hope to have some insights to add soon.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I'm sorry for your loss, Andreth. :(
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I too am sorry for your loss, Andreth. But I look forward to hearing your thoughts about this very important work (which I gather from your two screen names is pretty important to you too.) It certainly has a lot to say about hope/despair/death and deathlessness. Perhaps addressing some of that will help you work through the grieving process. But take your time. One thing we are not here at the Hall of Fire is rushed (as evidenced by our over two year long discussion about the Silmarillion that has spanned three different boards).
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

As I indicated I might do, I am responding here to comments that Athrabeth made about the Athrabeth in the Sil thread.
Ath wrote:For me, the scenario of Túrin issuing forth from the Halls of Mandos to engage in the final battle with Morgoth, and Eärendil descending from the heavens to “drive him from the airs”, seems more consistent with the historical myths of the Elder Days than the Athrabeth’s not-so-subtle hints that Eru will enter into Arda in order to heal its Marring. Although I consider the Athrabeth to be a powerfully compelling work (and one that I truly love), I’ve always had a real problem with this aspect of the debate. Quite honestly, it pulls me right out of the mythological structure that is the foundation of my own “belief” in Tolkien’s cosmology because of its resonating (and far too obvious IMO) Christian undertones. Even the Downfall of Númenor, with all its Old Testament parallels, doesn’t jar me as much as the idea that Eru will somehow be manifested in flesh and blood.
That's interesting, Ath, because for me that overt Christian undertones are a big part of why the Athrabeth is so powerful (even though I am not a Christian). It is the one place where Tolkien allows his most profoundly held spiritual beliefs to infuse his mythological universe. And it seems somehow right to me that of all the Elvish characters in the Legendarium, it is through Finrod that these ideas are expressed. To me, the whole concept of Arda Healed or Arda Renewed, which is so profoundly but incompletely discussed in the Laws and Culture of the Eldar essay cannot be understood without this parallel concept expressed in the Athrabeth. Finrod's awe at this conception is so tangible, I feel it along with him.
Tolkien wrote:'These things are beyond the compass of the wisdom of the Eldar, or of the Valar maybe. But I doubt that our words maybe mislead us, and that when you say "greater" you think of the dimensions of Arda, in which the greater vessel may not be contained in the less.

'But such words may not be used of the Measureless. If Eru wished to do this, I do not doubt that He would find a way, though I cannot foresee it. For, as it seems to me, even if He in Himself were to enter in, He must still remain als as He is: the Author without. ANd yet, ANdreth, to speak with humility, i connot conceive how else this healing could be achieved. Since Eru will surely not suffer Melkor to turn the world to his own will and to triumph in the end. Yet there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only. Therefore Eru, if He will not relinguish His work to Melkor, who must else proceed to to mastery, then Eru must come in to conquer him.

'More: even if Melkor (or the Morgoththat he has become) could in any way be thrown down or thrust from Arda, still his Shadow would remain, and the evil that he has wrought and sown as a seed would wax and multiply. And if any remedyfor this is to be found, ere all is ended, any new light to oppose the shadow, or any medicine for the wounds: then it must, I deem, come from without.'
Is there any more profound words in all of Tolkien's work?
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Post by Andreth »

I agree Voronwë! And his most "explict" reference to the Incarnation.

A few preliminary comments

I was struck how Finrod has some characteristics of the archangel Raphael from the Book of Tobit. (Tobit is canonical in the Catholic and Orthodox bibles, apocrophal in the Protestant bible). Raphael aids Tobit and his son Tobiah. He is a healer, advisor, companion and teacher.

The bitterness expressed by Andreth is palpable. And we find out later why she is so bitter. Thwarted love can be a hard thing to get over. It colours Andreth's perceptions of the world in general.

The curious fact that "Indeed the Wise amongt Men (who were few) for the most part kept their wisdom secret and handed it on only to those whom they chose." Odd since the Elves seem to share wisdom all the time.

I do think Morgoth corrupted Man's experience of death so that it was feared and hope taken away. I also wonder if the physiological experience of death was corrupted. What I mean is that we all want a "good death" free of pain or discomfort. Perhaps death and I'm excluding death in battle, as experienced , by the Edain was not peaceful. And it seems that in Númenor, they were able to experience that, they "fell asleep" and voluntarily reliquished their bodies. I suspect Eönwë helped them understand that.

The taking away of Men's hope seems the most grevious marring of all. Without hope in what lies on the other side, death is much harder to take.

Very interesting discussion so far.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Glad to see you post here, Andreth! I was hoping to get some of your thoughts about this work. You approach for a different point of view then those of us who have mostly participated in this thread, which is a very welcome addition.
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Post by Athrabeth »

Voronwë wrote:That's interesting, Ath, because for me that overt Christian undertones are a big part of why the Athrabeth is so powerful (even though I am not a Christian). It is the one place where Tolkien allows his most profoundly held spiritual beliefs to infuse his mythological universe
.
Andreth wrote:I agree Voronwë! And his most "explicit" reference to the Incarnation.


Personally, I'm afraid it's far too explicit for me as a participant in Tolkien’s “Secondary World”. It is, I think, the only time when reading his words that I sense the author oversteppping his own carefully and consistently maintained boundaries that serve to insulate the mythical, spiritual and moral sensibilities of his constructed universe from a more singularly Christian point of view.

It is because of these boundaries that I can walk along the paths of Arda without feeling like some kind of outsider, that I can examine the meaning of its symbols and themes from my own spiritual and philosophical centre. It is because of these boundaries that I can view Tolkien’s constructed universe free from the encumbrances of cosmological and anthropological “realities”. When I willingly suspend my disbelief as a reader of the Tale, it is not to embrace the story of Arda as some kind of distant mythological/historical past of this physical world, but rather as a profoundly deep reflection of the human condition. This reflection is cast in an “other world” that, for me, is outside the time and space of my immediate experience, while at the same time is intimately familiar and wholly recognizable.

Andreth’s prophetic words and Finrod’s subsequent consideration of their meaning trigger a personal reaction that I can honestly say has no parallel in my readings of Tolkien’s work. They literally jolt me out of that suspended disbelief and shift my thoughts back into the Primary World. The seed from which springs the possible future that Andreth foretells now lies somewhere in the actual past of human history. True or not, it is the foundation of a real faith for real people in the real world, and I cannot disconnect from that link, so powerful is its place in the reality of my cultural knowledge and experience. This isn’t Eärendil descending from the heavens, this isn’t Túrin striding out of the Halls of Mandos. This is God manifested - this is Jesus Christ, is it not?

And with that unavoidable recognition, Tolkien’s Secondary World temporarily crumbles away to reveal the author speaking from without. The “Enchantment” that “produces a Secondary World into which both designer and spectator can enter, to the satisfaction of their senses while they are inside” (as Tolkien refers to in “On Fairy-Stories”) momentarily fades as I try (and subsequently fail) to reconcile the convergence of two tales that I know in such different ways.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I understand exactly where you are coming from, 'Beth (it's been a long time since I've called you that, and I just felt like it :)). In fact the mystery isn't that you feel that way, but rather, that I do not. Because as you know our view of Tolkien's Universe is generally so similar. Like you, I have never seen Middle-earth or Arda as being directly connected to our world or universe. Rather, I see Tolkien's invented universe as a vehicle for expressing truths about our world or universe. As for why I find this part of the Athrabeth so powerful, it is not the fact of the inclusion of the concept of the incarnation that moves me so much; it is Finrod's wonder at that concept, and his humility in the face of a conception that is beyond the understanding of the wisest of the Eldar, but not beyond his acceptance. It is a demonstration of the power of Faith that rivals anything in Kierkegaard's brilliant writings. Nay, for me that even surpasses Kierkegaard.

And that is saying much.
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Post by vison »

Athrabeth wrote:Andreth’s prophetic words and Finrod’s subsequent consideration of their meaning trigger a personal reaction that I can honestly say has no parallel in my readings of Tolkien’s work. They literally jolt me out of that suspended disbelief and shift my thoughts back into the Primary World. The seed from which springs the possible future that Andreth foretells now lies somewhere in the actual past of human history. True or not, it is the foundation of a real faith for real people in the real world, and I cannot disconnect from that link, so powerful is its place in the reality of my cultural knowledge and experience. This isn’t Eärendil descending from the heavens, this isn’t Túrin striding out of the Halls of Mandos. This is God manifested - this is Jesus Christ, is it not?
I feel exactly the same way.

Once again I am brought up short, realizing that no matter how much I long for "more" LOTR, the Silmarillion and the rest are NOT what I want. LOTR succeeds magnificently where the other works fail --- for me. I always think, "If I want a Christian tract, I know where to find one. What I want from Tolkien is Middle Earth and nothing else."

I find it ironic, and I am sure I am not the first, that Tolkien's greatest and most "believable" message was from his heart, not his head; from his instinct and not his careful plan. That he longed to bring his creation around, somehow, to be the same as the Creator's. To "glorify" creation. By attempting it, he lost what was precious and rare and replaced it with a kind of commonplace imitation of reality. I don't mean to be harsh, as I know that many here regard the "other works" as greater than LOTR, or at least as important and great (if different). But try as I might, I can't think so.
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Post by Pearly Di »

I've not read Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth so can't comment on the story.

Sassy's post, however, caught my eye so I did want to comment on that. :)
Sassafras wrote:I haven’t searched much for Tolkien’s views on the justification for the Great War but today we know it was a complex combination of nationalism and political alliances. Did he believe the propaganda that all England was subjected to by the newspapers? Did he honestly believe that the Kaiser (cousin to Edward VII) was the spawn of Satan and the ‘Hun’ were orcs personified as they allegedly raped and pillaged their way across Europe?
I find this difficult to believe of Tolkien, Sassy. :scratch: I only say this because of his views and sentiments during WW2 which are documented in The Collected Letters. He hated vulgar jingoism and racist nationalism. He writes with great anger about a particular editorial in a British newspaper at the end of the war which rejoiced at the lines of German refugees escaping from devastated Berlin: that's what, in the editorial's opinion, these people deserved. Tolkien despised such ignoble sentiments - the demonising of a whole people-group, just as the Nazis did to the Jews - not least because of his deeply held religious convictions about mercy.

I don't know what he felt about WWI and its motivations, beyond his personal experience of trauma on the Somme and the loss of so many friends and fellow soldiers on the Front, which, as we all know, affected him deeply.

That's all I wanted to say. :)
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Post by Andreth »

Going off topic for a moment.

Voronwë, I directed my mother to this site, specifically your Arda Reconstructed thread. She was very impressed by your work. She read LOTR in 1965, the illegal Ace editions :oops: , and wrote some of the first criticism of LOTR in the 1970s. When the movies came out, she rediscovered her love of Tolkien and worked her way through the HOME books. But even with the HOME books, she did not realize what a heavy hand CT exerted on the Sil. Your work has made her go back and re-think her understanding of the First Age. Well done! :thumbsup:

I will be back soon with some more thoughts on the Athrabeth.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

:oops: I'm very honored.
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Post by Breogán »

I've had a great time reading this thread, the Athabeth is one of my favourite "stories".
While the story of the unrequitted love between Finduilas and Túrin fails to move me, this one breaks my heart every time I read it (and honestly, I'm not much of a romatic) Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Aegnor truly loves Andreth and yet he makes a decision that will only bring pain to him and the person he loves, altering her perception of life to the point she forsakes all Hope.
The role Finrod plays only adds to the drama, and provides with a wonderful insight on what the beliefs of the Eldar are. Also, and imho, Tolkien shows an aspect of the Eldar, or at least of some of them, that leaves behind that - let's say - aloofness that often seems to shroud his Elves. Even if Finrod was always somewhat "special", gifted with a unique personality and sensitivity, esp. towards the Children of Men, this Finrod of the Athrabeth, is truly memorable, as the story itself :love:
I know the depth of the themes behind this story, and as I've said, I have enjoyed reading your discussion and dissection of these themes. But I, like Vison, even being aware of the message behind the message, what I want from Tolkien is just ME (and I'm a Catholic, like Tolkien ;)).
Seriously, I know his "message" still permates me every time I read his works, but I dont want to think about it, or discuss about it - although I do enjoy reading about it every now and then :) - I just want to forget about our reality and visit that of ME, playing by ME rules and calling things by their ME names - oblivious of their true meaning in this reality of ours :)
(I fear that all I've just said has basically defined me as a "shallow" Tolkien fan, the non-scholarly type unworthy of HoF ;)...)

I am currently painting a scene from the Athrabeth - my personal homage ;) and the perfect excuse to keep reading again and again this story ;)
Last edited by Breogán on Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Am min idhrinn, min arad en-Naur, bain onen aen: noss, nîth ah estel: adaneth im.
"For one year, one day, of the Flame I would have given all: kin, youth, and hope itself: adaneth I am."
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Andreth
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Post by Andreth »

I find your comments quite interesting Breogan. I am Catholic too.

I think what I have found is a Catholic "sensibility" (poor word but the best I could come up with) that permeates Tolkien's writing. There are very few places where it's explict. The reference to the Incarnation above being one. I think that his faith is there and he is saying things that fit within Catholic tradition and teaching. After all, Tolkien went to Mass almost every day. I think the repetition of prayer and Scripture worked it's way into the "leaf mold" along with everything else. He is careful not to refer to anything overtly but it is there.

The best example I can think of that might help illuminate what I am trying to say are some of the films of Martian Scorsee. He has made several films "Goodfellas" and "The Departed" in particular which have as part of their background, the Catholic faith. He is saying things in these films about good and evil through a Catholic filter. Scorsee is not a practicing Catholic of course but he understands the cultural/spiritual impact Catholism has on the people in his films, Italians and Irish. But you don't need to be Catholic to appreciate his work or Tolkien's. It just adds a layer of storytelling to appreciate.

If I have confused or offended anyone, I do apologize. I'm not very good at expressing myself in this way. I'm a much better talker! :)
Wes ðū hāl
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