Too Short?

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

Personally, I like some things being left to the imagination. I don't want to know everything - I like there to be some mystery and some unanswered questions.

Although there are more scenes I'd like to see (which I will ennumerate later in reply to Hobby), one of the things I loved as a child about the Hobbit and LOTR was the glimpses of far off things, of great heroes grand and noble and villians so evil you couldn't even speak of them. It's like magic. You know there's a secret, but you don't want to know what it is because that would make it . . . less, somehow. One of the things that makes Tolkien's Arda so amazing and engulfing is it's vastness -- knowing too much about it makes it less vast.

[Primula Baggins]

Personally, I like some things being left to the imagination. I don't want to know everything - I like there to be some mystery and some unanswered questions.

Tolkien thoroughly understood how unexplained details give depth to a story, and it's one of the things that makes LotR so rich—it's a principle I've always tried to apply in my own storytelling, because it works and because it's fun. But he was master of it. I have no doubt that if he'd told more stories, and pushed the boundaries of Middle-earth out a little farther, there would be new mysteries on the edges of the new stories, and in the end the same richness.

[Túrin Turambar]

Incidentally, this relates to my criticism of the Star Wars Extended Universe (EU). Since Lucas gave the rights to write Star Wars books to other authors, every little detail in all of the films has a novel exploring it. A lot of the novels are quite poor, but in some cases even the good ones can be a little disappointing. For example, Revenge of the Sith starts in media res – the battle is already well underway, even drawing to its conclusion. The novel Labyrinth of Evil explores the story before the start of RotS, and it includes Grevious’ initial raid against Coruscant and the capture of the Chancellor. Quite frankly, I found the scene a little silly – it involved running and fighting on moving trains and that sort of thing, and overall, I’d prefer to imagine the events myself. I like the movie starting where it starts. This would not be so much of an issue with Tolkien, but it could still be there. For example, how many people here can claim to like his interpretation of Barad-dûr and Gondor? I prefer my own.

[truehobbit]

It is Tolkien's world, not mine. It would be like me trying to finish off Michelangelo's unfinished statues. Impossible!

Well, not actually physically finish it - but don't you see the slaves, for example, finished in your mind's eye? I mean, they are fascinating the way they are, too, but it's nice to envision them as polished as David and the Pieta, for example.

It is not the same, it is unsatisfying, because for one thing, I could change my mind. Today the beer is good, tomorrow it isn't.

To me, that makes it even more satisfying! I would be very sad if I didn't find my own imagination satisfying.

You know there's a secret, but you don't want to know what it is because that would make it . . . less, somehow. One of the things that makes Tolkien's Arda so amazing and engulfing is it's vastness -- knowing too much about it makes it less vast.

Very well said, Mossy, that's what I think, too!

[Roccondil]

It has often seemed to me that Middle-earth and it's histories was more detailed in the mind of Tolkien than he ever actually put down on paper. One just has to look at the questions from readers that evoked huge answers.

The famous letter 214 has a huge amount of information about the Shire not found elsewhere and which we would never have known about if A.C. Nunn had not written to ask about hobbit birthday presents.

The work on "The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor" is another example that was written following a small query by a reader.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

One of the things that makes Tolkien's Arda so amazing and engulfing is it's vastness -- knowing too much about it makes it less vast.

I disagree. To me, Tolkien's universe is so vast it is virtually limitless. The more I have read and thought about his work, the more vast that it seems. The more details are revealed, the more there appears to be to know. Adding the details of The Wandering of Húrin does not diminish the Narn -- on the contrary, it makes my appreciation that much richer. Knowing the story of the Nazgûl's hunt for the Ring does not lessen my appreciation of early parts of LOTR - it greatly enhances it. Knowing the story of Cirion and Eorl gives me a greater understanding of the relationship between Rohan and Gondor at the time of the War of the Ring.

On the other hand, seeing a glimpse of a new shadow arising in the Fourth Age does very little for me.

[Impenitent]

...To me, Tolkien's universe is so vast it is virtually limitless. The more I have read and thought about his work, the more vast that it seems. The more details are revealed, the more there appears to be to know...

This has also been my experience - and this is part of the response to Hobby's post:

To me, that makes it even more satisfying! I would be very sad if I didn't find my own imagination satisfying.

It is not that I don't find my own imaginings and attempts at sub-creation satisfying; it is more that I find Tolkien's sub-creation unique and wonderful and fascinating. I wish for glimpses into his world; I wish to enter into the Other, that which is not me and is alien to me. Creating it myself, completing for myself that which is beyond the view, can work but it does not expand the horizon. It encloses it, creating a boundary to that world, somehow, because if it is the fruit of my own imaginings it is no longer the unknown.

On the other hand, discovering more of Tolkien's own story expands those horizons because more questions arise for me. As the boundaries expand, there is yet more that is unknown beyond those boundaries.

I'm not sure I'm expressing this in a way that is comprehensible. But Hobby, of course it is indeed satisfying to have a creative imagination.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Imp, I understand what you are saying very well, but then, I have a very similar perspective.

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

One of the things that makes Tolkien's Arda so amazing and engulfing is it's vastness -- knowing too much about it makes it less vast.

I disagree. To me, Tolkien's universe is so vast it is virtually limitless. The more I have read and thought about his work, the more vast that it seems. The more details are revealed, the more there appears to be to know. Adding the details of The Wandering of Húrin does not diminish the Narn -- on the contrary, it makes my appreciation that much richer. Knowing the story of the Nazgûl's hunt for the Ring does not lessen my appreciation of early parts of LOTR - it greatly enhances it. Knowing the story of Cirion and Eorl gives me a greater understanding of the relationship between Rohan and Gondor at the time of the War of the Ring.

That I do agree with. I like knowing the histories, etc. The Narn was probably one of my favourite parts of the Unfinished Tales, because of all the extra detail (and because Túrin is one of my favourite characters ), but at the same time, I feel like there are some things that I don't want to know. For example, I'm so glad that Tolkien never said what happened to Men after they died, though all of my attempts at explaining why have fallen flat.

I'm having trouble explaining this both here and to myself. I want glimpses and to know the history, but to know one is generally to know the other, since in Tolkien's writings the myths ARE the histories, and vice-versa. Lúthien is a legend, as is Eärendil, but at the same time they are both very solid history and their not to distant descendents still walk the Middle Earth in the time of the War of the Ring. It is hard, for me, to say what is too much detail. This is one of the reasons that I like having various version of certain tales -- it makes it feel more mythic. No one is quite sure what exactly happened, so I as the reader can't be sure either. If I may quote from the Professor himself:

Still round the corner there may wait
A new road or a secret gate.

I need the feeling that there will always be a secret gate, something more around the corner that I cannot and will not know.

[scirocco]

It is not that I don't find my own imaginings and attempts at sub-creation satisfying; it is more that I find Tolkien's sub-creation unique and wonderful and fascinating. I wish for glimpses into his world; I wish to enter into the Other, that which is not me and is alien to me.

Absolutely agree. And while I can dream about the parts of the Other that haven't been revealed, the parts that have been shown to us have a solidity and a reality that is independent of my own existence. The fishermen are still going out every day in the "windy bay of Bel" and Tom is still paddling his boat down the Withywindle, whether I'm there or not. Hobby said:

scirocco, I think the beer in the Forsaken Inn tastes exactly the way you imagine it to taste!

But it doesn't, Hobby! The beer is good or bad depending on whether the brewer was drunk or not that day, or whether the hops had lost freshness on the long journey from the South-farthing. What I think of the beer doesn't matter; it takes its quality from the reality of Middle-earth and I am just an observer. And no other author I've ever read (perhaps with the exception of Zelazny) has been able to do this for me.

Imp, I'll email you...

[Frelga]

I'm with Impish. It is no more possible to tell ALL tales of Middle-Earth than it is to tell ALL tales of this-here Earth. I want to hear MORE and I know I can never hear everything.

Among other things, I would really like to know about those grim hillmen of Lamedon. What were they like that they looked grim even to the besieged, war-hardened Gondorians? And why didn't they have a Captain? And how many is "a few"?

[BrianIsSmilingAtYou]

Voronwë, you're right about Galadriel's lament. I love it, and it's real poetry, too. And what we get of "The Lay of Lúthien".

The poetry I meant was, you know, the bath songs, etc. And that fox......

Of course, things like the bath songs aren't poetry, they're songs, and they have to be considered as such. Songs don't always work on their own, and often require music (imagined or real) to be effective.

The EE of FOTR contained portions of the Bath Song as a song in the Green Dragon scene and it was quite effective.

BrianIs AtYou

[Primula Baggins]

Brian, I can't stand it any more. I have to speak up. Because, really, someone has to say it.

Your niece is utterly adorable!







<phew>

[Impenitent]

Prim, you are so sweet!

(and Brian, you niece is cute.)

[truehobbit]

It is not that I don't find my own imaginings and attempts at sub-creation satisfying; it is more that I find Tolkien's sub-creation unique and wonderful and fascinating. I wish for glimpses into his world; I wish to enter into the Other, that which is not me and is alien to me. Creating it myself, completing for myself that which is beyond the view, can work but it does not expand the horizon. It encloses it, creating a boundary to that world, somehow, because if it is the fruit of my own imaginings it is no longer the unknown.

On the other hand, discovering more of Tolkien's own story expands those horizons because more questions arise for me. As the boundaries expand, there is yet more that is unknown beyond those boundaries.

I'm not sure I'm expressing this in a way that is comprehensible. But Hobby, of course it is indeed satisfying to have a creative imagination.

I think I do understand, Imp, and I think you put your finger on something very important, which I hadn't been aware of before! I agree that, given the choice, of course I shouldn't mind getting more from Tolkien - the original author's ideas are more creative, more surprising, simply because they come from someone other than myself!

But what I see (probably mistakenly?) in your and others' wishes for more is not what I wish - namely simply more great texts to enjoy - but it seems that you wish any gaps to be closed! And it is those gaps that, to me, are vital to the story!

Yes, I don't hesitate to use my own imagination where I feel like it - but I think that most of the time it doesn't even occur to me to ask such questions. Or maybe I get ideas subconsciously, without ever asking well-defined questions? I can't really tell.
I read "Fog on the Barrow-downs" for the VTSG a few days ago - there were quite a few hints to the legendary past there, and this time (probably because of having dealt with ME history a bit more recently) it was the first time that it occurred to me that I should maybe be asking what those stories are about - but at the same time I realised that this was a sad question, and that it was more thrilling to just marvel at the things hinted at in this chapter.

It's like a picture that is only good as long as the artist makes a decision on which part of the subject to give in detail and which to leave out or just sketch.
When everything is given equal importance, the whole ends up being meaningless, I think.

But it doesn't, Hobby! The beer is good or bad depending on whether the brewer was drunk or not that day, or whether the hops had lost freshness on the long journey from the South-farthing. What I think of the beer doesn't matter; it takes its quality from the reality of Middle-earth and I am just an observer.

Again, reading such a thing just makes me sad. I'll just be glad I'm not you!

[Primula Baggins]

Well, anything Tolkien wrote would contain those "gaps," because that's the way he wrote. So even if he had written works that filled in some of the gaps in what we have, there would still be plenty left to all our imaginations and plenty to wonder about.

I do understand how important those unknowns are in giving Tolkien's work its depth, complexity, and appeal. Based on the non-Tolkien fantasy I've read, that is exactly what most of his imitators miss. Their worlds are tidy and small and carefully explained. They feel hermetic and inert, and I can't make myself interested in what happens there—because I know that, too, will be tidy and thoroughly explained.

[Frelga]

* makes note of Prim's comments and pins it over her desk *

[Primula Baggins]

[Voronwë the Faithful]

See? You should contribute more.

[Primula Baggins]

I'm trying to. . . .

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