The Scouring of the Shire

[Queen_Beruthiel]

Anyone want to discuss one of the most controversial parts of LOTR: the Scouring of the Shire? We had a good discussion going on this once upon a time at TORC, before it collapsed in semantics and Shagrat’s (remember him?) obsession with orcs and half-orcs.

http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=78170

I agreed with Nár, the thread originator, that the SotS is flawed. The idea is good of itself and follows the epic tradition: in the great tales the changed hero/es often return to a less than satisfactory welcome. Things have changed, moved on, in his/their absence and there are problems to be dealt with at home. Odysseus and Telemachos having to deal with the suitors is probably the best known example of this trope.

So Tolkien’s Scouring follows in this tradition, as well as linking into his customary themes: the importance of free will, free to refuse the possibility of redemption; the cyclical pattern of nature, which can heal the wounds inflicted by man; the power of grace, as Galadriel’s last gift to Sam not only heals the Shire, but blesses it with one magical year.

And then there is the wounded/maimed hero, who has lost that which he tried to save. Frodo’s sailing into the West has echoes of the dying Arthur being taken away by water – tradition again, but is also very relevant in its illustration of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, especially as it affects war veterans. There was a wonderful essay on this which I linked to somewhere on TORC. Can’t find it at the moment, but I will continue to look.

However, amidst these wonders are some (IMO) clunky scenes. I would mention the scenes at the Cottons and the Battle of Bywater itself. Seeing Sam slot back into being scolded, ninnyhammer-wise, by the Gaffer, is jarring to me after his great deeds. Tolkien seems to be on the brink of bringing back the Simple Sam of the early chapters, but fortunately veers away from that quite quickly. Merry & Pippin's behaviour, from here right through to the last page, seems rather loud and ostentatious, even proud. I prefer Frodo's and Sam's modest demeanour to this going around in flashy foreign designer label gear.

But the main problem for me, is tone. I find the tone inconsistent. Too Boys Own Paper when dwelling on Merry as Hero of the Battle of Bywater. Nor do I think the humour works in this part. The Gaffer scolding Sam..... been there, done that.

One thing this episode does do though, is make it clear that Frodo just cannot remain with his own kind. I'm very fond of hobbits, but both their strengths and their limitations come through very strongly here.

And am I alone in seeing a hint that Paladin Took only defied the ruffians because he envied Lotho's pre-eminence in the Shire? That does indeed strike a dark note, but again, Tolkien veers away from it quickly.

Any comments?

[Jnyusa]

Another great thread, Queen B!

Just got time for a quick comment.

I agree that the leadership of Merry and Pippin is a bit overdone, though the first time I read it I found it very exciting. It is also more successful than such attempts are likely to be in real life ... as I view the Scouring as being a kind of return to 'real life.' (That is the point at which we realize how like our own land the Shire is by comparison with the rest of Middle Earth.) I honestly believe it would be easier to kill a Witch King than to change the attitude of a neighbor ... though I've also seen mobs form at the drop of a thimble.

The scolding of Sam was a wonderful touch, imo. First, I imagine that this is exactly how the soldiers felt returning from WWI, or any war, confronting the ignorance and curiosity of friends who simply cannot imagine what they've seen and lived through. And I suspect that just about everyone goes 'Gah!' at those lines from the Gaffer and Rosie, and it may be that this is the very point that we, the readers, realize just how much Sam has changed in our own eyes and how much of a hero he has become. I do think it was important to show that Sam, Merry and Pippin are also irrevocably removed from their peers by the things they have experienced, and I felt warmed by the way this was shown in the case of Sam. It felt to me exceedingly true to life.

Jn

[Faramond]

Anyone want to discuss one of the most controversial parts of LOTR: the Scouring of the Shire?

Yes.

But is it really controversial? I suppose I am ignorant of this. What exactly is the controversy of the Scouring about?


I agreed with Nár, the thread originator, that the SotS is flawed.

I don't think the Scouring is flawed at all, not one bit. I haven't read the TORC thread yet, though.


So Tolkien’s Scouring follows in this tradition, as well as linking into his customary themes: the importance of free will, free to refuse the possibility of redemption; the cyclical pattern of nature, which can heal the wounds inflicted by man; the power of grace, as Galadriel’s last gift to Sam not only heals the Shire, but blesses it with one magical year.

These are all good themes, but none to my mind the most important one.

I think the main theme of the Scouring of the Shire is death, and the permanence of a catastrophic change. In other words, you can't go back to the way it was. It's easy to say this, but it's hard to really show this in a way that emotionally resonates. I think the Scouring of the Shire does this. I will want to talk about this more in a later post.


And then there is the wounded/maimed hero, who has lost that which he tried to save.

I think Frodo has already effectively died by the time he gets back to the Shire. A large part of what happens in the final chapters is the acceptance of this by Sam and Frodo. Again, I will want to talk about this more in a later post.


However, amidst these wonders are some (IMO) clunky scenes. I would mention the scenes at the Cottons and the Battle of Bywater itself.

I disagree, but I have no interesting argument to back this up! Just a matter of taste, perhaps.


Seeing Sam slot back into being scolded, ninnyhammer-wise, by the Gaffer, is jarring to me after his great deeds.

The Gaffer knows nothing of Sam's great deeds. To him he's the exact same Sam who left, and he's going to treat him as he's alwasy treated him! Why would we expect otherwise? People try to hang on to the things they know, the relationships they know. The Gaffer doesn't want to hear about Sam being a hero now! He wants his same old Sam back.


Merry & Pippin's behaviour, from here right through to the last page, seems rather loud and ostentatious, even proud. I prefer Frodo's and Sam's modest demeanour to this going around in flashy foreign designer label gear.

But is Merry and Pip's behaviour unreasonable? Is it out of character? It is over-prideful, perhaps, but they aren't perfect!


But the main problem for me, is tone. I find the tone inconsistent. Too Boys Own Paper when dwelling on Merry as Hero of the Battle of Bywater. Nor do I think the humour works in this part. The Gaffer scolding Sam..... been there, done that.

I don't understand what "Boys Own Paper" means.

As for the tone ... what can I say but that I disagree that it is inconsistent?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thanks for starting this thread, Queen B! I have plenty to say about this, but no time to say it (though Jn as usual as already said some of what I was going to say, and Faramond, too). I'll be back when I have more time to think about it.

[Queen_Beruthiel]

Unpopular and misunderstood, rather than controversial perhaps. Didn't Jackson say that he didn't understand why it was included (paraphrasing from memory)?

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Besides the TORC thread, I have found the essay I referred to:

http://www.geocities.com/karynmilos/toodeeplyhurt.html

[Whistler]

He did. That always scared me.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

To be honest, Queen B, I never thought of the Scouring as unpopular or controversial or heard of it described in those terms it they weren't included in the films and Peter made those comments that you refer to. But much as I love Peter Jackson's LOTR films, I hardly look to him as an expert on Tolkien's work.

[eborr]

aha the Scouring

in some ways the most important part of the book.

It subverts the whole notion of the herioc quest and live happily ever after.

By neglecting the shire the hobbits most likely to resist take over by an evil party allowed that to happen.

"This is mordor Sam" is the give away line, by ignoring your own repsonsibilities evil will occur even in the safe places that you thought you were protecting.

This is why PJ and the Tolkien experts on his staff do not understand the book

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

I don't believe I participated in that discussion on TORC, but I can make up for lost time now.

Seeing Sam slot back into being scolded, ninnyhammer-wise, by the Gaffer, is jarring to me after his great deeds. Tolkien seems to be on the brink of bringing back the Simple Sam of the early chapters, but fortunately veers away from that quite quickly...

I don't find Gaffer's treatment of Sam "clunky" at all. On the contrary, I think it's pretty realistic. Think about your relationships with your own parents. If not now, wasn't there a time during your adult life when they tended to hold onto images of you when you were young and still under their care?

I recall when I was a teenager an occasion when my mother affectionately referred to me as "child". I told her that I wasn't a child. She said, "You'll always be my child." So I pulled out a dictionary and showed her that a child was someone age 12 or younger. I told her that I would always be her son, but that I was no longer her child. Some parents, and mothers in particular it seems, tend to think of their offspring as children regardless of their age. The relationships developed in childhood tend to linger for years.

Think of Sam during his adventures, too. Even though he was miles away from The Shire, he was always chiding himself about this and that, calling himself names that his Gaffer would call him, and imagining what the Gaffer would say if he could see Sam in the predicament he'd gotten himself into. Psychologically, Sam was never too far from The Shire and his Gaffer.

Remember, too, that Sam's adventure had taken him away from The Shire for the span of only one year. The Gaffer doesn't know what's Sam's been through, and has not yet been able to spend time with Sam to witness the changes in him. Unlike Merry and Pippin Sam hasn't imbibed in Ent draughts, so other than his "iron mongery" his appearance has changed very little.

I don't find Merry & Pippins behavior too terribly out of character, either. They had many profound experiences throughout their journeys, traveled in the company of the great, achieved great victories on the battlefield and, perhaps more importantly, come very near to death themselves. They weren't about to let a few cowardly ruffians spoil their homecoming.

Remember, too, that Tooks and Brandybucks are not your common hobbits. Merry & Pippin come from the stock of the most adventurous and masterly of hobbits. The fact that they towered over the other hobbits, and were well-armed to boot, undoubtedly added to their confidence.

I thought Tolkien developed this section of The Lord of the Rings very well. Perhaps the ruffians are overcome a bit too easily, and perhaps The Shire under influence of Galadriel's magic dust recovers too quickly, but overall I find it consistent with the rest of the novel.

[MithLuin]

I agreed with Nár, the thread originator, that the SotS is flawed.

I remember that thread! But then, I enjoyed the half-orc discussion . Nár seemed to think that it wasn't dark enough, and someone (maybe him?) thought that the image of hobbits fighting men (and winning) was just too comical to be taken seriously. The fight between Merry and the main ruffian at the end was the offensive part, since the rest is (mostly) hobbits defending a barrier from higher ground.

And am I alone in seeing a hint that Paladin Took only defied the ruffians because he envied Lotho's pre-eminence in the Shire? That does indeed strike a dark note, but again, Tolkien veers away from it quickly.

Perhaps...but what is being pointed out here is that the Thain, at least, is a legitimate ruler of the whole Shire - Lotho SB is just a power-hungry upstart. Not only is he a bad leader, he has no business being leader. And thus, Paladin Took has the reponsibility to take out Lotho, the pretender to the throne, even more than the other hobbits do.

This relates back to the 'rightness' of Aragorn being King - not only is he a great guy, but he is the actual legitimate heir to the throne!

So, no, I don't see it as so dark, though it could be taken that way. The real question is whether the Thain makes any effort to 'take charge' after Lotho is ousted - he doesn't. Frodo becomes temporary Mayor.

PS - I've heard the Scouring is in (in some form) in the Toronto Stage Production. We could ask JewelSong for any comments on how that was handled....

[Queen_Beruthiel]

Been on holiday.

I don't mind people disagreeing with me.

I love and admire most of the chapter, especially the confrontation between Frodo and Saruman. The damaged Shire, the cowed or collaborating hobbits, "This is Mordor" - great, unsettling stuff.

But I still think the too-easy Battle of Bywater doesn't fit tonally, with the superior parts of this section.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Sorry to disappoint you, Queen B, but my opinion is pretty much exactly the same as yours, so no disagreeing here.

(I was just thinking about you the other day, and how much I missed having you around here.)

[Pearly Di]

I love and admire most of the chapter, especially the confrontation between Frodo and Saruman. The damaged Shire, the cowed or collaborating hobbits, "This is Mordor" - great, unsettling stuff.

But I still think the too-easy Battle of Bywater doesn't fit tonally, with the superior parts of this section.

Yes, yes, yes and yes. Yes to everything you said.

How boring is that?

I love the concept of the Scouring. I just don't think that Tolkien's prose flies as well here as in other parts of LOTR. (Where's Wildwood, to come in and bash me with a trout because I don't find the Scouring one of the most awesome or compelling parts of the book? )

Frodo's confrontation with Saruman, however, does more than make up for the deficiencies I see in this chapter. It's magnificent ... and it convinces me. (The BBC version of this is ... )

A post-Scouring incident that always moves me greatly is the healing of the rift between Lobelia and Frodo. Nicely done, Professor. *nods with approval and hands Tolkien a gold star*

I'm so cheeky.

[Queen_Beruthiel]

Well, aren't we a boring bunch?

[Faramond]

In the Scouring of the Shire, the Shire dies ... and is reborn ... but not as the same Shire.

I don't focus much on the mechanics of the rebirth. By this I mean the leadership of Merry and Pip and the battles.

When I think of these chapters of I think of the devasation of Sam upon seeing what has happened at the heart of the Shire.

The Shire becomes a home again, but not the same home it was. There are elements of the old Shire in it, and a little of Lórien as well. I don't know if it is better or worse than the old Shire. It is just different.

[Queen_Beruthiel]

I don't understand what "Boys Own Paper" means.

Just realized that I never explained this term. Boys Own Paper was a British magazine dating from Victorian times. It was a cut above the "penny dreadfuls" but followed that formula of simple storytelling. BOP told tales of derring-do, sometimes in a school setting, sometimes in some far-flung corner of the Empire. It provided a template for 20th Century boys' magazines in which some plucky lad came from nowhere to score the winning goal or perform a heroic rescue.... that kind of thing.

It is Merry commanding the hobbit army against supposedly ruthless men twice his size which I was thinking of when I made the comparison.

I think the David and Goliath set-up works in the case of Éowyn and Merry v the Wiki, because of the high mythic tone. The BOP tone in the mundane setting in the Scouring chapter is one reason why I don't find the Battle of Bywater satisfactory.

Sorry I didn't explain.

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Jewel did not think the Scouring worked in the context of the musical LOTR in Toronto.

Can't say I'm surprised.

[eborr]

The battle of Bywater is interesting because of it's smallness - the ruffians were nothing more than common thugs, who culd be driven off pretty easily which is what they were.

I think that this fits into the notion of the contrast with the great and epic and the small - which is what the shire is.


So Tolkien was faced with the problem of writing about a low key battle without making it trivial - and maybe he didn't meet that challenge.

Obviously the key elements in the scouring is the death of Saruman - and I entirely agree with others it is one of the most important sections of the whole of the novel, as it defines Frodo's journey and also gives us the major clue as to the nature of evil, of hope and of redemption.