They Might Be Giants?

[Alatar]

Breogans artwork in Arda Reconstructed got me thinking about this, and I know we had a brief discussion on it, but I'd like to explore further.

Were the Valar giants?

We know they took human/elvish form, but "greater in majesty". Now, I never personally took this to mean "twice to three times as big". There are certainly moments where the Valar take the form of giant figures, such as when Ulmo appears to Tuor, and Morgoth in general seems to have preferred a gigantic form. Another situation is where Aulë takes up his hammer to smite the Dwarves, which would certainly suggest he was pretty huge in comparison.

However, if we accept this, it creates some problems in the narrative, with regard to sense of scale. If Aulë vs the Dwarves is an accurate scale then Fingolfins challenge now seems ridiculous rather than foolhardy but courageous, and Thorondors scratching Morgoths face becomes an insect sting. Furthermore, the suggestion that the Eldar would be able to accept Oromë at face vale seems far-fetched to say the least.

Thoughts?

[N.E. Brigand]

Coincidentally, it is because of Voronwë's book (then in MS. form) that I happen to have trancscribed (and saved in my e-mail) the pages where the following nearly identical notes appear:

The fanar of the Great Valar were said, by the Elves who had dwelt in Valinor, usually to have had a stature greater than that of tallest Elves, and when performing some great deed, or issuing great commands, to have assumed an awe-inspiring height.

The fanar of the great Valar were said by the Eldar who had dwelt in Valinor usually to have had a stature far greater than that of the tallest Elves, and when performing some great deed or rite, or issuing commands, to have assumed an awe-inspiring height.

Those notes to the entry for the root "PHAN" appear on p. 174 and p. 175, respectively, of Tolkien's "Words, Phrases and Passages in various tongues in The Lord of the Rings", edited by Christopher Gilson and published in Parma Eldalamberon, v. 17 (2007).

[solicitr]

If Aulë vs the Dwarves is an accurate scale then Fingolfins challenge now seems ridiculous rather than foolhardy but courageous, and Thorondors scratching Morgoths face becomes an insect sting.

Morgoth is I think something of a special case- he had become in a way semi-incarnate, and certainly had lost the ability to control his fana in the flexible, almost at-will manner of the Valar. He not only remained in the Tyrant of Utumno guise perforce from the time of the Darkening onward; but he is also unable ever to heal his lame foot or scarred face. Tolkien also mentions that when Manwë and co. first see him again after long ages, when they stormed Utumno and made him captive, they are shocked at how 'diminished' he has become. This could and perhaps should be read with a dual meaning: diminished both in native power and physical size (which would be interdependent, one would think).

This would still leave a pretty big bad dude- but since Morgoth set his foot upon Fingolfin's neck that still implies a foot rather smaller than Statue of Liberty-size.

(As to Aulë and the Dwarves- well, even if Aulë were only the same size as the Dwarves, he still could fatally skull-bash the poor fellows. But of course even at Man-size he would be much bigger, and at Early Elf-size (eight feet) bigger still, and at Sauron-size bigger than that.... and it seems that anyway the Valar could adjust their size to whatever seemed convenient at the time.)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thanks, N.E.B. That certainly confirms that the depiction of the Valar in the two illustrations, the one on the cover with Manwë and Mandos much larger than Finwë and the spirit of Míriel, and the one of Maedhros reporting on the death of Finwë to Manwë, with unidentified Valar in the background, is definitely accurate. As I knew all along.

[N.E. Brigand]

That confirms that the depiction of the Valar in the two illustrations ... is definitely accurate.

Well, that depends: are they accurate depictions of the scenes as described only in those particular texts? If Tolkien couldn't be bothered to be clear when writing those particular passages that the Valar are much taller than the elves, is a reader then wrong to think otherwise? When Tolkien doesn't describe something carefully, does he mean for readers to see what he sees, or is he content with other interpretations (so long as they don't contradict the text in hand)? If Tolkien had seen the explanation of the root "PHAN" to publication, would it still include this comment?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't think a reader is ever wrong in having their own interpretations of scenes, particularly if they don't directly contradict what Tolkien wrote of a particular scene. But I think it is pretty clear that pretty much every physical description of the Valar presents them as larger than life, and those statements in WP&P are awfully unambiguous.

If Tolkien had seen the explanation of the root "PHAN" to publication, would it still include this comment?

This kind of speculation is endless. Neither of the too scenes that I referred to were ever published in Tolkien's lifetime, and of course were even excluded from the published Silmarillion. Even passages that were included in the published Silmarillion are subject to the same speculation. Indeed, Tolkien made changes even to the works that were published in his lifetime (and even some changes have been made to them after he passed away). You could say would Tolkien have kept the description of Frodo the same had he lived longer? Who knows, maybe he would have decided to go with the fifty foot tall hobbits that appeared in that ridiculous cartoon that we saw some months ago.

The fact of the matter is, Tolkien wrote that description, he never contradicted it, and it is consistent with the other evidence that we have. That's more than good enough for me.

[River]

FWIW, my impression of the Valar (and the Maiar to a certain extent) is that they could appear however they wanted to appear. Morgoth gave that power up in pursuit of other powers - he could not just create something and send it on its merry way like Eru could. He had to pass something of himself and his will into the things he made or twisted, and in doing so he was diminished (interestingly, this is echoed in Sauron and Rowling did essentially the same thing to Voldemort; in his quest for immortality and power for its own sake, Voldemort actually became less than what he started as).

However, if we accept this, it creates some problems in the narrative, with regard to sense of scale. If Aulë vs the Dwarves is an accurate scale then Fingolfins challenge now seems ridiculous rather than foolhardy but courageous, and Thorondors scratching Morgoths face becomes an insect sting.

Fingolfin's charge never seemed like anything less than an insane suicide mission to me. That he struck a blow to Morgoth that Morgoth felt until the end of time is telling of both Fingolfin's strength and Morgoth's diminishment.

As for Thorondor, think for a moment of the size of the Eagles. These things are observed giving rides to grown men and grown Elves; in the case of Fingon and Maedhros, multiple grown Elves, one of which was tall even by the reckoning of Elves. Now think about what the largest raptors of today prey on. The Eagles of the Silmarillion (and the Eagles of LOTR for that matter) are not small birds. They are enormous. Too big to exist in this world. And they are, in essence, divine intervention personified. So I don't find it far-fetched at all that Thorondor could attack Morgoth and scar his face if Thorondor wanted to.

[solicitr]

In fact, while Gwaihir is huge, Thorondor's wingspan is utterly unbelievable, 180 ft, or about that of an Airbus A330 or Boeing 787- or a B-2 bomber. And if Thorondor was proportioned like a Golden Eagle, his body would have reached 75 feet- that's the size of a sperm whale, almost twice the length of a Tyrannosaurus.


He probably could have picked up Morgoth and carried him away.......

[Frelga]

So once again we are back to "why didn't they just use the Eagles" discussion.

[Alatar]

Thanks, N.E.B. That certainly confirms that the depiction of the Valar in the two illustrations, the one on the cover with Manwë and Mandos much larger than Finwë and the spirit of Míriel, and the one of Maedhros reporting on the death of Finwë to Manwë, with unidentified Valar in the background, is definitely accurate. As I knew all along.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion V, as I am to mine, but if it were that cut and dried I wouldn't have started this thread. Its FAR from conclusive, and you don't know anything for sure.

There's a huge difference between "Larger than life" and gigantic. In those pics you described, the Valar are nowhere near 8ft tall, in fact they're closer to 50 ft or more. Are you honestly suggesting that the Valar deliberately made themselves huge and intimidating when Maedhros was reporting the death of Finwë? Were they "performing some great deed or rite, or issuing commands" at this time? If not, why do they appear to be gigantic?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

"The fanar of the great Valar were said by the Eldar who had dwelt in Valinor usually to have had a stature far greater than that of the tallest Elves."

Far greater. That is consistent with every description that Tolkien made. I haven't seen anything at all that indicates otherwise. Certainly, the Valar could appear smaller if they wished (and perhaps Oromë did when he first appeared to the Elves), but generally that is how they would appear, based on what Tolkien wrote. You may not like what he wrote, and prefer to substitute a different impression, but that is a different issue altogether.

[Alatar]

Don't condescend to me Voronwë. If you didn't want discussion that disagrees with your opinion you should have said so at the outset. Feel free to say and think whatever you like on your board, but if thats the mindset here I'll take my opinions elsewhere, where they might be given some respect.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm not condescending to you, Alatar. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing that Tolkien wrote that contradicts his explicit statement that the Valar had a stature that was far greater than the Elves, that I am aware of. Even the description of the battle between Morgoth and Fingolfin that you point to supports that statement: "the rumour of feet was like thunder" "he stood before the King like a tower" "Fingolfin gleamed beneath it like a star" Morgoth swung Grond "down like a bolt of thunder."

[vison]

One thing I noticed long ago is how little in the way of personal description there is of characters in LOTR. Not "none".

[MithLuin]

Yes - he tells us what we should be taking away from the description, and lets us form our own pictures. That is why most of his descriptions focus on the eyes - when we see a face, we read a lot from the eyes and the mouth. He gives almost no indication of what Aragorn is wearing when we meet him - we see the boots and the hood and the gleam of eyes - that's it. And since the legs are so long, he must be rather tall . Later, the clothes turn out to be green/brown, but nothing about their style. This is why every drawing/painting of Aragorn depicts him differently, while almost all the Gandalfs look the same - Tolkien was more meticulous about his appearance.



I certainly understand wanting to defend Breogan's artwork, Voronwë - but if we are discussing how tall the Valar are, it is fair to say that Tolkien didn't specify. Because...he didn't. They could be twice as tall as the elves, and still be under 20 feet. Special cases are just that - Ulmo appearing to Tuor isn't what he always looked like. The Valar can change their appearance to fit their mood and the circumstances - all of which leads to quite a wide range of interpretation.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Certainly, Mith, there is plenty of room for interpretation, so long as it is consistent with the details that he does give. Twice as tall is certainly reasonble (and actually is pretty close to what Breogan portrayed). A foot or two taller simply doesn't fit what he says, so far as I can tell. I'd be happy to proven wrong, with specific examples. But the statements that he did make that I am aware of really are pretty conclusive.