Where was Gollum captured and tortured?

Post by **Alatar** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:41 pm

Just reading some info on an expansion for Lord of the Rings Online: Siege of Mirkwood. Its stated there that Gollum was captured and tortured in Dol Guldor. I'm just wondering if this has any basis in canon, or if its just a game mechanic. I always thought Gollum was captured near Mordor and tortured in Barad-dûr.

Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:34 pm

Without actually checking, my recollection is the same as yours, Al. I'd say I'm about 99.9% sure that is correct.

Post by **solicitr** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:37 pm

By the time Gollum left his cave in the Mountains, Sauron had been driven out of Dol Guldur.

Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:58 pm

True, but presumably there were still some of his worthies hanging out there waiting to re-occupy the place under Khamul's leadership. Still, there is no question that Gollum was caught by Aragorn on the outskirts of Mordor. As it says in Appendix B:

3017 Gollum is released from Mordor. He is taken by Aragorn in the Dead Marshes, and brought to Thranduil in Mirkwood.

And from the Council of Elrond:

`There is little need to tell of them,' said Aragorn. `If a man must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he will have. I, too, despaired at last, and I began my homeward journey. And then, by fortune, I came suddenly on what I sought: the marks of soft feet beside a muddy pool. But now the trail was fresh and swift, and it led not to Mordor but away. Along the skirts of the Dead Marshes I followed it, and then I had him. Lurking by a stagnant mere, peering in the water as the dark eve fell, I caught him, Gollum.

Post by **solicitr** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:10 pm

Yep. Quite so.

I should have made explicit what was in my head- that Gollum was questioned by Sauron personally, and that couldn't have been at Dol Guldur.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:15 pm

Isn't it Gollum who says something about "four fingers only he has on the Black Hand, but they are enough"? Or something to that effect—I don't have chapter and verse. His emotional reaction (closes eyes and shudders?) is intense enough that it made me think Gollum had actually been in the presence of Sauron.

I may, by the way, be completely loopy.

Post by **axordil** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:36 pm

This is where one wishes a e-text version of LOTR were available--for searches.

I think you're right, though, Prim.

Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:06 pm

Yes, as both soli and Prim have indicated, I think that it is abundantly clear that Gollum was personally questioned by Sauron himself.

From "The Black Gate is Closes":

`That would be Minas Ithil that Isildur the son of Elendil built ' said Frodo. `It was Isildur who cut off the finger of the Enemy.'
`Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering. 'And He hated Isildur's city.'

Back to Al's original question, I realized he meant "captured by Sauron" not "captured by Aragorn." But he is still correct. From Appendix B:

3009 Gandalf and Aragorn renew their hunt for Gollum at intervals during the next eight years, searching in the vales of Anduin, Mirkwood, and Rhovanion to the confines of Mordor. At some time during these years Gollum himself ventured into Mordor, and was captured by Sauron.

Ax, did you miss the news that there are now seachable e-texts of LOTR and other Tolkien works available for the Kindle and other formats?

Post by **solicitr** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:17 pm

Now- how many knew that Gollum was captured and questioned by Ugluk outside Lórien?

Post by **axordil** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:48 pm

Ax, did you miss the news that there are now seachable e-texts of LOTR and other Tolkien works available for the Kindle and other formats?

I'm not surprised, but I have yet to make the jump to a reader. When I do it's on my list for first five purchases.

Post by **N.E. Brigand** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:35 pm

solicitr wrote:Now- how many knew that Gollum was captured and questioned by Uglúk outside Lórien?

Anyone who's closely read Hammond and Scull's The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion since that work appeared late in 2005. It has been <argued> that this is one catch-and-release too many, fortunately absent from the text Tolkien actually published.

Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:57 pm

As usual, I disagree with Squire. There is no inherent reason why Gollum being captured by the Orcs and then escaping (not released) doesn't make sense simply because he also was captured and escaped (or was released) by both Sauron and Aragorn/Gandalf/Woodelves. In fact, I think that it makes a fair amount of sense. But then, I'm not nearly as inclined to be critical as Squire is.

Post by **WampusCat** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:21 pm

The only reason Gollum knew about Cirith Ungol was because that was how he was allowed to "escape" from Mordor after his torture.

Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:44 pm

True. But I'm not sure I understand why you are making that point here. Can you elaborate?

Post by **WampusCat** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:49 pm

Well, Cirith Ungol is on the way out of Mordor, not Dol Guldur. Or am I missing something?

Post by **Alatar** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:07 pm

Thanks guys, thats what I figured.

Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:31 pm

WampusCat wrote:Well, Cirith Ungol is on the way out of Mordor, not Dol Guldur. Or am I missing something?

No, definitely not missing something. I just wasn't sure what part of the discussion you were reponding to. Now it is clear.

Post by **solicitr** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:15 pm

The part of this affair that puzzles me is "and enough is said to make Uglúk certain that Ring was with the Company", and "Uglúk sends news to Isengard of Hobbits; but not of the Ring". So Ugluk knows about the Ring? Did Saruman tell him? And whereas here he treacherously keeps this crucial tidbit for himself, after he captures M&P he's all for following orders without apparently the least thought of searching for or grabbing It? It's confusing.

It's all the more confusing because Tolkien "backwrote" this story long, long after he had finished Books II and III.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:24 pm

I can't imagine keeping all the constantly shifting details straight in a story this size, with no access to computers. I don't think one can expect everything to mesh perfectly. And I'd guess that sometimes it's late changes that introduce the problem, not what's been there all along.

Tolkien certainly had ideas for changes that he started to execute and didn't carry through completely, not because he wasn't careful but because there was (I'd guess) just too much to keep track of. Especially in the days before searchable text! <shudder>

Post by **solicitr** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:31 pm

Well, Tolkien's 'neolithic' technique was simply to rule off pages in a grid, with columns for each of his many groups of characters and their day-by-day movements. And, yes, he did this because he had made something of a chronological muddle of things. He went through about a half-dozen rejected pages of the crucial week leading up to the Pelennor.

But all the time-and-distance issues don't seem to explain why at a very late date (summer 1946, most likely) he conceived or maintained the idea that Saruman would have entrusted the most sensitive bit of intelligence in Middle-earth to an Orc!