Is LOTR 'Round World From the Beginning'?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Alatar (and everyone else) you simply cannot equate the HoME texts regarding the Elder Days with the HoME texts related to the Lord of the Rings. The LOTR material is in fact superceded drafts and is such is nothing more then a curiosity - in interesting insight into the creative process of one of modern times' greatest literary works and nothing more. But that is not the case with the material related to the Silmarillion and related works, particularly the later material. What is the published Silmarillion? It is an amalgamation of bits and pieces of different works chosen largely at random by Christopher Tolkien (and presumably Guy Kay) in order to try to create a cohesive whole. Much was either left out or flat out changed in this process. To limit one's understanding of this incredibly complex material to just that published text - simply because it was the first portion of this material to be chosen for publication by CT is (in my opinion of course) short-sited. The Book of Lost Tales probably stands in about the same position as the HoME material on LOTR. But it is abundantly clear from the later work on the Silmarillion-related texts that the conceptions of Tolkien's Physical Universe described in the Ambarkanta was still a very important part of his conception. To disregard it simply because it was not explicitly included in the original published Silmarillion is (IMO) a mistake.

I'll be back to talk about Sea-longing later.

[Alatar]

Voronwë, it's not that I choose to ignore them, but I don't feel that everything ever written that pertains to the Silmarillion carries equal weight. Obviously, some believe that the construction of Arda has deep philosophical meaning. I simply don't. What I have read strikes me as random musings rather than a unified blueprint. I just don't take it as seriously as you or Ath obviously think I should. However, it strikes me that Christopher didn't think it was very important either, or he'd have put it into the published Silmarillion. Surely, if he believed it was a crucial foundation to that tale and important to his father he would have made room for it?

[Sassafras]

<Slight osgiliation>

Let me ask the question which has me somewhat confused:

Which of the works related to the Sil are considered canon by the majority of Tolkien scholars? Is there a consensus?

How does one pick and choose between, say, the published Sil and the several volumes of HoME? Is the Athrabeth canon? (I would think so).

And then again ... does it really matter?

But unless and until agreement is reached we shall continue to have differences of opinion about Tolkien's intent. Truth is, none of us really know .... and neither, apparently, does Christopher.

[superwizard]

But Alatar Christopher did not include many things not because of their importance or lack of it but because they were unfinished. I don't actually know if this is the situation for this particular piece though...

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Which of the works related to the Sil are considered canon by the majority of Tolkien scholars? Is there a consensus?

How does one pick and choose between, say, the published Sil and the several volumes of HoME? Is the Athrabeth canon? (I would think so).

I really don't see how the texts that were used for the published Sil can be considered to be more "canon" then other texts written contemporaneously. For instance, Chapter Two of the published text consists of two short pieces of work that were molded together and inserted into the Sil even though neither of them were a part of the Quenta Silmarillion. The first was a document that was in a paper wrapper paper wrapper bearing the words "Amended Legend of Origin of Dwarves" that was related to a much later chapter in the QS. The second was a completely unrelated (and frankly highly whimsical) work that Tolkien drafted towards the end of his life regarding the Ents and the Eagles, which was utterly unrelated to work on the Quenta Silmarillion. How could these scraps of work be considered more canon, then the Athrabeth, which was a highly completed work which Tolkien explicitly stated was to be included as an "appendix" to the Silmarillion, and which contains some of Tolkien's most profound words?

[Sassafras]

I'm not disagreeing with you, Voronwë. Especially about the Athrabeth ... which, as you say, Tolkien intended to include as an appendix ... but even there ... the Tale of Adenel from the notes to the Athrabeth alters one's initial perception of the work (at least it does for me) ... and I haven't worked out in my own mind if JRR intended that version (the Tale) to represent the Fall of Men .... or if it's just a flight of speculative fancy on possible causes for Andreth's reluctance to speak fully to the darkness of Men's past.



Tolkien never threw anything away ... that's the problem and while I think Christopher has done a herculean job of sorting through every scrap of paper ... it can be difficult keeping all of the versions of basically the same story straight in one's mind. That's why I asked if there is a consensus about Silmarillion canon.

One does not have a similar difficulty with LotR and the various drafts before the final story.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm not familiar enough with Tolkien scholarship to render an opinion as to whether there is a consensus as to what is canon. I only know what I consider to be canon.

[Athrabeth]

what I see here is Tolkien building his foundations after the house. In some way trying to make them work. I don't belive the foundations were there when the Myths were written, but rather an attempt to rationalise them after the fact.
*snip*
Yet you seem to suggest that not buying into every aspect of this diagram somehow means that I'm missing the "foundations" of the story. These "foundations" are nothing more than abstract constructs that JRRT may well have rejected out of hand.
*snip*
Obviously, some believe that the construction of Arda has deep philosophical meaning. I simply don't. What I have read strikes me as random musings rather than a unified blueprint

The Ambarkanta was written, according to CT, who cites it as being of "cardinal interest", as a "fine manuscript in ink, with very little emendation." It is a complete essay, not a series of notes. Written sometime in the early to mid Thirties, before the Ainulindalë and Quenta Silmarillion, it was definitely not "random musings" nor a case of "building his foundations after the house". As a matter of fact, I think its creation fits well with Tolkien's inclination to construct a physical "model" for his tales at early or pivotal stages of their development, through diagrams, maps, and detailed descriptive notes; as if he needs to "see" the setting clearly before the narrative can be fully formed.

One does not have to accept it or like it or even fathom it, but I think it should at least be acknowledged as a significant and meaningful foundation for the physical cosmos in which the narrative takes place.

Well, the sea is primarily to the West... I would have though that was obvious enough. To me the sea longing is the echo of the music of the Ainur that is held in water. Even Hobbits can feel that connection because it relates to them as much as any other living thing. Valinor has no such attraction for a hobbit.

I agree that the echo of the music is a strong theme in both the Sil and LOTR, but it is not, IMO, the same thing as the Sea-longing, which isn't just about ancient wisdom and beauty and truth found in the "sigh and murmur" of waves, but about "taking sail" and departing from Middle-earth over the Sea and into the West.

From the Prologue:

And as the days of the Shire lengthened they spoke less and less with Elves, and grew afraid of them; and the Sea became a word of fear among them, and a token of death, and they turned their faces away from the hills in the west.

ONLY Frodo, and later Sam, experience the Sea-longing: this is a very significant fact. It is primarily an Elvish yearning that once experienced, can never be fully assuaged. It's why Galadriel "warns" Legolas about hearing the gulls......because once his heart turns to the sea, the longing for his people's home in the West will inevitably draw him away even from the woods of Middle-earth that he loves so deeply. Men of Numenorian descent also feel the draw of "the West" over the Sea for their own reasons:

but the exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue.

It's about yearning for what has been lost.

And it was lost in the bending of the world.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I agree that the echo of the music is a strong theme in both the Sil and LOTR, but it is not, IMO, the same thing as the Sea-longing, which isn't just about ancient wisdom and beauty and truth found in the "sigh and murmer" of waves, but about "taking sail" and departing from Middle-earth over the Sea and into the West.

From the Prologue:

And as the days of the Shire lengthened they spoke less and less with Elves, and grew afraid of them; and the Sea became a word of fear among them, and a token of death, and they turned their faces away from the hills in the west.

ONLY Frodo, and later Sam, experience the Sea-longing: this is a very significant fact. It is primarily an Elvish yearning that once experienced, can never be fully assuaged. It's why Galadriel "warns" Legolas about hearing the gulls......because once his heart turns to the sea, the longing for his people's home in the West will inevitably draw him away even from the woods of Middle-earth that he loves so deeply.

Yes, even as remarkable a hobbit as Meriodoc Brandybuck turned away from the sea, as his conversation with Haldir in Lothlórien shows.

'Happy folk are Hobbits todwell near the shores of the sea!' said Haldir. 'It is long indeed since any of my folk have looked on it, yet still we remember it in a song. Tell me of these havens as we talk.'

'I cannot,' said Merry. 'I have never seen them. I have never been out of my own land before. And if I had known what the world outside was like, I don't think I should have had the heart to leave it.'

Men of Numenorian descent also feel the draw of "the West" over the Sea for their own reasons:

but the exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue.

It's about yearning for what has been lost.

And it was lost in the bending of the world.

The only other Mortal that I can think of who felt the Sea-longing was Tuor, son of Huor, the ancestor of the Numenorians. But Tuor was a special case, specially chosen by Ulmo as His instrument in penetrating the rift in the armour of Fate, the breach in the walls of Doom: the last hope of the Noldor. And therefore his fate was not as those of other Mortals:

But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered for the fate of Men.

But it was Tuor's faithful friend and guide who spoke the words about the Sea that always move my heart the most (as my friends from the old days will recognize:

Voronwë sighed, and spoke then softly as if to himself. 'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.

*Sigh*

[Primula Baggins]

How well I remember that quote.

And that sig.

[superwizard]

I agree with Voronwë_the_Faithful it isn't the bobbits that yearn for the sea but specifically Frodo and Sam. But not
just them. Isengar the realative of Frodo (from the Took side) left in his youth to the sea. And he was not alone I'm sure other Tooks also had this 'sea longing' so even though it was rare it was not just Sam and Frodo that had this longing.

[Alatar]

The Ambarkanta was written, according to CT, who cites it as being of "cardinal interest", as a "fine manuscript in ink, with very little emendation." It is a complete essay, not a series of notes. Written sometime in the early to mid Thirties, before the Ainulindalë and Quenta Silmarillion, it was definitely not "random musings" nor a case of "building his foundations after the house". As a matter of fact, I think its creation fits well with Tolkien's inclination to construct a physical "model" for his tales at early or pivotal stages of their development, through diagrams, maps, and detailed descriptive notes; as if he needs to "see" the setting clearly before the narrative can be fully formed.

One does not have to accept it or like it or even fathom it, but I think it should at least be acknowledged as a significant and meaningful foundation for the physical cosmos in which the narrative takes place.

Ok, I won't labour the point any more. I still hold to my original opinion that the Silmarillion is lessened rather than improved by this concept, but I won't attempt to convince you of that. I can remain happy in my own private, blissful ignorance.

I agree that the echo of the music is a strong theme in both the Sil and LOTR, but it is not, IMO, the same thing as the Sea-longing, which isn't just about ancient wisdom and beauty and truth found in the "sigh and murmur" of waves, but about "taking sail" and departing from Middle-earth over the Sea and into the West.

<snip>

ONLY Frodo, and later Sam, experience the Sea-longing: this is a very significant fact. It is primarily an Elvish yearning that once experienced, can never be fully assuaged.

When you refer to the desire to sail west, that is not sea-longing. That is desire for rest, for final peace. Sam and Frodo feel that because they were ringbearers and because Frodo can only be healed in Aman. In consequence Sam can only find final rest in Aman because Frodo is there. Sam's heart does not need an Elvish heaven. It needs Frodo. While it can be argued that Frodo feels an "elvish yearning", Sam most certainly does not.

Men of Numenorian descent also feel the draw of "the West" over the Sea for their own reasons:

but the exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue.

It's about yearning for what has been lost.

And it was lost in the bending of the world.

Again, this is a yearning for Númenor that was, not for Aman.


And Valinor was not lost to Mortals at the bending of the World. Valinor was never available to mortals. It was also not lost to the Elves, as they can take the straight path. What exactly changed when Valinor was removed from the circles of the Earth?

All that happened was that Mortals could no longer attempt to find Valinor, a place that was never theirs to reach anyway.

[scirocco]

If I may butt in, I thought that Christopher Tolkien had demonstrated that the Ambarkanta had largely been superseded in Tolkien's thinking, as part of his move away from the very literal, specific geography of the older Book of Lost Tales style of writing, towards the more "figurative" approach of his more mature years? But I'm not fully au fait with all that, and perhaps I should save it for the other thread we have going on the subject. And it certainly doesn't appear in LOTR, which is what we are discussing.

I think I may have given people a few misconceptions about my views on the whole RWASATMFTB issue. I'm as disappointed as most people that Tolkien ever went down that track. I certainly do not think it is an improvement in a "literary" sense from the original concepts, even if it (perhaps) makes for a more physically consistent world. I don't think the Silmarillion could have been as easily converted as Alatar is suggesting, and I'm convinced by the arguments put forward here with the difficulties of all the common characters and events that link the First and the Third&Fourth Ages. I've argued on TORC that Tolkien was not successful in his attempts to try and make the conversion, and I yield to no-one in my love and appreciation of the Straight Road concept as "real" and "true".

But J.R.R Tolkien did not publish the Silmarillion, and despite the fervent attempts of many here I remain unconvinced that, having "missed the boat" at the end of the 1940's, he would have wanted to publish it in largely that form (or that framework, at least). He had a long period of time during the late 50's and 60's when publishing houses would have killed for the chance to publish, and the pressure was immense, as can be seen from Letters, but he did not do so (admittedly partly becasue of the general incompleteness of the tales). The RWASATMFTB theories were no mere aberrations, no dabbling around the edges (even if they were so in 1948); they were strongly held views that Tolkien would have felt obligated to carry through. IMHO, it's quite possible by 1960, say, that JRRT preferred not to publish the Sil at all, because "you cannot do this anymore" and he could not find a way to re-work it in a convincing manner. I suspect that the "better something than nothing" of Letter 133 had become "better nothing than something I no longer believe in, or can't justify".

So that leaves us with where I was trying to start the thread from, with only LOTR as reflecting Tolkien's intent as at the end of his life (and TATB, interestingly enough, which I'll touch on later). And I wanted to discuss in this thread whether LOTR could fit with that intent.

I've run out of time, and RL is calling, but I wanted to throw this in. Where do the little cameos of the Moon in the "Cat and the Fiddle", and the poem of The Man in the Moon Came Down too Soon, fit into the "Moon As Chariot For A Maiar Spirit" or "Moon As A Lump Of Rock" viewpoints? Both unarguably canon (I wondered how long it would be before we heard that word ) and one published very late in Tolkien's life. (And please don't tell me they're nonsense-rhymes without meaning, everything has meaning! )

Edit: Voronwë, please don't let the thread get into a general "what is canon" debate - surely there's enough meat there for another thread. Ta :)

[Athrabeth]

In consequence Sam can only find final rest in Aman because Frodo is there. Sam's heart does not need an Elvish heaven. It needs Frodo.

Like I've been saying......it's about yearning for what was lost . It's about the desire to find.........some kind of completion for the heart and soul.

To me, the "Sea longing" is symbolic of both losing and gaining, leaving and returning, and yes, even death and renewal.

For me, it's definitely more than just seeking for a specific place.

And I think that's where I'll leave it until a Sea-longing thread is started, so that the discussion can return to focus on LOTR as Round World/Sun and Moon from the beginning.

[superwizard]

scirocco maybe you are right and maybe Tolkien did want to go with a round earth from the beggining but still if you believe in that theory than you pretty much have to give up on much of The Sil.

IMHO, it's quite possible by 1960, say, that JRRT preferred not to publish the Sil at all, because "you cannot do this anymore" and he could not find a way to re-work it in a convincing manner.

If that is the case than for once I have to say I am happy Christopher went against Tolkien wishes. I am sorry that the round earth theory was never completed but that leaves us with only the flat world. I simply refuse to ignore The Sil because it is too beautiful to ignore. I wish that Tolkien had finished the round world from beggining theory but alas all there is are a few incomplete fragments. So I will stick with the flat world and be content with it.

Where do the little cameos of the Moon in the "Cat and the Fiddle", and the poem of The Man in the Moon Came Down too Soon, fit into the "Moon As Chariot For A Maiar Spirit" or "Moon As A Lump Of Rock" viewpoints?

To that question I have no idea. I personally dismissed them as simply rhymes with no real meaning but if you have any other ideas please tell me.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

If I may butt in, I thought that Christopher Tolkien had demonstrated that the Ambarkanta had largely been superseded in Tolkien's thinking, as part of his move away from the very literal, specific geography of the older Book of Lost Tales style of writing, towards the more "figurative" approach of his more mature years? But I'm not fully au fait with all that, and perhaps I should save it for the other thread we have going on the subject.

Not really. The evidence seems to be that the Ambarkanta view of the universe largely survived in the post-LOTR work on the Sil material. As I have cited before:

Amid all the ambiguities (most especially, in the use of the word 'World'), the testimony seems to be that in these texts the Ambarkanta world image survived at least in the conception of the Outer Sea extending to the Wall of the World, now called the Walls of the Night -- thought the Walls have come to be differently conceived (see also p. 135, § 168). Now in the revision of 'The Silmarillion' made in 1951 the phrase in QS § 12 (V.209) 'the Walls of the World fence out the Void and the Eldest Dark' -- a phrase in perfect agreement of course with the Ambarkanta was retained. [Morgoth's Ring, pp. 63-64].

And it certainly doesn't appear in LOTR, which is what we are discussing.

It doesn't appear explicitly in LOTR, no, but I will argue that the philosophical concepts that stem from that view of the physical universe are implicit in LOTR.

I think I may have given people a few misconceptions about my views on the whole RWASATMFTB issue. I'm as disappointed as most people that Tolkien ever went down that track. I certainly do not think it is an improvement in a "literary" sense from the original concepts, even if it (perhaps) makes for a more physically consistent world. I don't think the Silmarillion could have been as easily converted as Alatar is suggesting, and I'm convinced by the arguments put forward here with the difficulties of all the common characters and events that link the First and the Third&Fourth Ages. I've argued on TORC that Tolkien was not successful in his attempts to try and make the conversion, and I yield to no-one in my love and appreciation of the Straight Road concept as "real" and "true".

But J.R.R Tolkien did not publish the Silmarillion, and despite the fervent attempts of many here I remain unconvinced that, having "missed the boat" at the end of the 1940's, he would have wanted to publish it in largely that form (or that framework, at least). He had a long period of time during the late 50's and 60's when publishing houses would have killed for the chance to publish, and the pressure was immense, as can be seen from Letters, but he did not do so (admittedly partly because of the general incompleteness of the tales). The RWASATMFTB theories were no mere aberrations, no dabbling around the edges (even if they were so in 1948); they were strongly held views that Tolkien would have felt obligated to carry through. IMHO, it's quite possible by 1960, say, that JRRT preferred not to publish the Sil at all, because "you cannot do this anymore" and he could not find a way to re-work it in a convincing manner. I suspect that the "better something than nothing" of Letter 133 had become "better nothing than something I no longer believe in, or can't justify".

Yes, I would say that I agree with all of this. As much as I don't agree with the RWASATMFTB theories that are contained in the Myths Transformed section of Morgoth's Ring, I think it clear that Tolkien was serious about it. I think the evidence of his failing to publish a version of the Sil despite the strong pressure from the publisher is pretty compelling. The other piece of evidence that I mentioned previously -- that in the late piece that he wrote about the Ents and Eagles that CT used to form the second part of Chapter Two of the published Sil there was a part of a sentence that CT removed because it implied that the sun existed from the beginning of Arda -- also strongly shows how committed Tolkien was at that point to the change.

I think that is precisely why he never did publish the Sil.

So that leaves us with where I was trying to start the thread from, with only LOTR as reflecting Tolkien's intent as at the end of his life (and TATB, interestingly enough, which I'll touch on later). And I wanted to discuss in this thread whether LOTR could fit with that intent.

And I have to say that no it could not. Even though, as I agreed above, the Ambarkanta description of the universe is not explicitly described in LOTR, in my opinion (which I admit can not be helped but be influenced my own perspective) the Straight Road concept is so embedded philosophically in LOTR that it would be impossible to separate it from it, even if the Silmarillion and all the other material had never been published. Remember the words of the Foreword (which after all has to be considered part of what Tolkien himself published:

But the story was drawn irresistibly towards the older world, and became an account, as it were, of its end and passing away before its beginning and middle had been told.

I don't think that LOTR can be separated, philosophically, from the more ancient history as it existed when Tolkien wrote LOTR. The sense of loss is so deeply embedded in LOTR that it is a tangible part of the story, even though exactly what it was that was lost is never clearly set out in that work.

I've run out of time, and RL is calling, but I wanted to throw this in. Where do the little cameos of the Moon in the "Cat and the Fiddle", and the poem of The Man in the Moon Came Down too Soon, fit into the "Moon As Chariot For A Maiar Spirit" or "Moon As A Lump Of Rock" viewpoints? Both unarguably canon (I wondered how long it would be before we heard that word ) and one published very late in Tolkien's life. (And please don't tell me they're nonsense-rhymes without meaning, everything has meaning! )

I don't see them as much of an obstacle, scirocco. I think that it would be a natural thing for rustic folk to distort Tirion the Maia into "the Man in the Moon".

Edit: Voronwë, please don't let the thread get into a general "what is canon" debate - surely there's enough meat there for another thread. Ta :)

Agreed. I'm not a big fan of "questions that have no real answers." If someone wants to start such a thread, that's fine, but I'll probably mostly stay out of it.

Men of Numenorian descent also feel the draw of "the West" over the Sea for their own reasons:

but the exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue.

It's about yearning for what has been lost.

And it was lost in the bending of the world.

Again, this is a yearning for Númenor that was, not for Aman.

I have to disagree with this, Al. The men of Númenor desperately yearned for Valinor, to their destruction. Even after Númenor's destruction, they still yearned not just for Númenor, but for Aman itself:

Among the Exiles many believed that the summit of the Meneltarma, the Pillar of Heaven, was not drowned for ever, but rose again above the waves, a lonely island lost in the great waters; for it had been a hallowed place, and even in the days of Saruon none had defiled it. And some there were of the seed of Eärendil that afterwards sought for it, because it was said among loremasters that the far-sighted men of old could see from the Meneltarma a glimmer of the Deathless Land. For even after the ruin the hearts of the Dúnedain were still set westwards; and though they knew indeed that the world was changed, they said: 'Avallónë is vanished from the Earth and the Land of Aman is taken away, and in the world of this present darkness they cannot be found. Yet once they were, and therefore they still are, in true being and in the whole shape of the world as at first it was devised.'

[Alatar]

That surprises me greatly Voronwë. My impression was that only the followers of Ar-Pharazôn longed for Aman. The Faithful knew that Aman was not for them and abided by the Valars wishes. Surely to suggest that the Faithful yearned for Aman is to suggest that a seed of Ar-Pharazons rebellion remains in the Faithful. That's certainly not how I ever read it. I would argue that there is a huge difference between wanting to live or be within "sight" of Aman and actually yearning for it.

But perhaps thats semantics.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Ho boy! Alatar. This could be the topic for yet another thread. Briefly, I do believe that even the Faithful felt that yearning for Valinor, but that that desire was checked by their reverence and love for the Valar and most of all for the One. It is my further belief that it was just this yearning in the Gondorian descendents of the Faithful that caused (or at least contributed to their decline:

Death was ever present, because the Numenoreans still, as they had in their old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless life unchanging. Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living, and counted old names in therolls of their descent dearer then the names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; in secret chanbers withered men compouned strong exilers, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars.

[Alatar]

The problem with this Voronwë, is that they yearn for unending life, not Aman. They saw Aman (incorrectly) as a place where they could live forever. Their desire for Valinor had little to do with yearning for "what was lost" or anything of that sort. They simply wanted to live forever and saw Valinor as the only way to do that.

In short, they do not yearn for Valinor, they yearn for Immortality. Even were immortalility granted to those who reside in Aman, still that would be a yearning for Immortality, and Aman only as a route to that yearning.