I've decided to move this discussion here because some of the main contributors are uncomfortable posting in the original location. I haven't moved the whole thread, just the main cognitive thread.
Alatar wrote: I was discussing old Irish legends with TrueHobbit and I referred to the story of Cuchulainn. Also, in reference to my childrens names there was some enquiry about the history of the names. Finally, Tolkien often regretted the fact that the Norman invasion had all but wiped out English Mythology and mourned it's loss greatly.
I promised Hobby that I would look for a copy of "Cuchulainn of Muirthemne" by Lady Gregory and that I would send it on to her, but unfortunately I could not find a copy. It suddenly occurred to me that it was probably out of copyright and in the public domain so I looked for a copy on the net. Lo and Behold, I found it!
To give a little backstory, an Englishwoman, Lady Augusta Gregory, was widowed in the late 1800's and chose to spend a lot of her time in the country estate of her late Husband in Coole in the West of Ireland. She developed a desire to learn the Irish language and from this began to learn the old legends. She was surprised to see that these tales existed only in the oral tradition or alternatively in ancient Gaelic texts that were inaccessible to laymen of the time. She made it her lifes work to take down these tales and to structure a narrative out of them that would be written in English as this was already becoming the dominant language in Ireland.
Irish people are incredibly indebted to her for her foresight in this. Without her, many of these legends would simply have been forgotten and lost.
I hope some of you enjoy them:
Cuchulainn of Muirthemne
Of Gods and Fighting Men
Alatar wrote:I've started looking through this and I'd like to start a little study group if anyone's interested. As Englands closest neighbour (well France is a little closer geographically) I think it might be interesting to compare Irelands mythology with Tolkien's invented mythology for England.
NOTE: This will be simplistic and seriously user friendly! I am not a scholar and my knowledge of Irish mythology is probably less than my knowledge of the Silmarillion. This will be a "learn as we go" approach rather than a lecture series. We'll work in a similar fashion to the M000bies reads the books threads. I'll change the thread title to reflect the current chapter in "Cuchulainn of Muirtheimne" and you'll be expected to read at your leisure, then post your observations on possible parallels and comparisons with Tolkiens work.
Alatar wrote:Alright Class! Sit up and pay attention at the back there! Your assignment for this week is to read the chapter
Birth of Cúchulain
Some thoughts before we start. Lady Gregory wrote these stories in what is known as "Kiltartanese". It's an English approximation of the Irish oral storytelling style as spoken by of the people of the village of Kiltartan. As such the prose falls awkwardly on a modern ear, but to me, that's part of it's charm. If you are interested in more detail on this and the background from which Lady Gregory plucked these stories (and are not bothered by some spoilers) read the following:
Preface by William Butler Yeats
To start our comparison with Tolkien, I'd like to point out the first similarity. These tales are cobbled together from various local versions, many different, to create a self contained cohesive narrative, much as Christopher had to sift through several versions of Tolkiens writing to come up with the Silmarillion. There are several different accounts of Cúchulains death, for example, but we'll discuss that when we get there!
Enjoy the tale! At the beginning of a journey, the Irish have a blessing, "May the road rise to meet you" and I'll use it here for the start of our journey into the Mythology of Ireland.
Go n'eirigh an bóthar leat! (Guh nye ree on bow hur lat)
Alatar
Note on Pronunciation:
Even in Ireland we have different pronuciations of these names depending on region and dialect, but I'll give my closest approximation to the most common pronunciation:
Conchubar: In old irish Cruh-Hoor (Modern Irish - Conor)
Emain Macha: The ch in Irish is always soft, as in Bach or almost silent
Muirtheimne: Mwir-thane
Ask me others as you need them.
IdylleSeethes wrote:There are a few things in this first chapter that are reminiscent of Tolkien.
-The informality of leadership.
In most of European history, the throne is constantly fought over. Someone is always in power, or seeking it. In Celtic literature, as demonstrated by the ease with which Fergus and Conchubar exchange the role without emnity, the position is not fought after. The empty throne at Minas Tirith is reminiscent of a period preceding Conchubar, during which there was no King of Ireland.
-The emergence of a Wormtongue character.
Briciu is skilled at interpreting the facts in ways that lead the listener in the direction Briciu prefers. A proptotype for all politicians, but as related to Tolkien, he is the progenitor of Wormtongue.
-The use of birds as agents of magic
Flying creatures in Tolkien have both physical (Nazgûl, Eagles) and magical (Saruman's flock, moth). The Celtic creatures have the additional property of being temporary containers for gods and humans.
Side notes:
Lug was a Celtic "hero" and "sun" god. He started as human but convinced Dagda that no one was as skilled as he in all of the arts. Variations of Lug's name appear in place names all over western Europe. More obvious examples are Laon and Leignitz, but Carlisle and Vienna are also connected.
Alatar wrote:A couple of quick thoughts:
Fostering: This seems to be a common theme. Setanta is raised with the best tutors, raised to be a hero. There is no accidental "boy from nowhere" aspect to his upbringing. Much like Aragorn he is raised with the skills to help him achieve greateness. It seems odd, looking at it, that all of Tolkiens major heroes, whether tragic or triumphant, come from splintered family backgrounds. Aragorn was raised in Elronds house, surrounded by the wise. Fëanor suffered from jealousy of his Half-Brothers and Step-Mother's love for his Father. Denethor, Boromir and Faramir all suffered for the loss of their Mother. Even Bilbo and Frodo had unusual families by Hobbit standards. It seems that in both real and invented Mythology, extraordinary people do not spring from ordinary stock. They are born with the blood of heroes and raised to be heroes, whether with or without their knowledge. Even Bilbo, it is suggested, would not have risen to his challenges were it not for his Took blood.
Given vs Earned Name: Cúchulainn was born and raised as Setanta. Aragorn was Estel and later became Elessar. Túrin had many names. Even Beren renamed himself after his ordeals. A name holds power in both real and invented Mythology.
More when I think of it!
Alatar
IdylleSeethes wrote:Wilma,
There are complications. Will you settle for a list of the main characters for reference?
Significant characters in Cuchulain
Ailell
King of Connaught. Husband of Maeve. Father of the Maine brothers and Findabair
Aoife (Aife)
Lover of Cuchlain. Mother of Cuchulain's son Conlaoch.
Briciu
Difficult and deceptive resident of Ulster
Cathbad
Druid
Conaire
King of Ireland from 109 BCE.
Conall
Red Branch Knight
Conchubar (Conchobhar Abhradhruadh)
King of Ireland from 8 BCE to 7 BCE. Son of Ness. Assumes throne in place of Fergus.
Conlaoch (Connla)
Son of Aoife and Cuchulain.
Cuchulain (Cuchulainn) (Setanta)
Son of Dechtire and Lug. Foster son of Sualtim. Champion of Ireland. Red Branch champion.
Dechtire (Dechterre)
Mother of Cuchulain by Lug. Wife of Sualtim
Emer
Daughter of Forgall. Wife of Cuchulain
Eochaid Feidlach (Eochaidh Feidhleach)
King of Ireland from 142 BCE to 130 BCE. Grandfather of Conaire. Father of Maeve.
Fand
Lover of Cuchulain. Wife of Manannan
Fergus
Suitor to Ness. Gives his throne to Conchubar. Tutor of Cuchulain. Red Branch champion
Laeg
Cuchulain's chariot driver.
Laegaire
Red Branch champion
Lug (Lugh)
Celtic triple god. Multi-talented.
Lugaid (LugHaidgh Sriabh nDearg)
King of Ireland from 34 BCE. King of Munster. Friend of Cuchulain. Husband of Cuchulain's lover Devorgill. Pupil of Cuchulain.
Maeve (Medb) (Maeb) (Mab) (Morgana)
Queen of Connaught. Wife of Ailell. Mother of the Maine brothers and Findabair.
Sometimes identified as the goddess Medb(Maeb) (Mab) (Morgana)
Ness
Mother of Conchubar
Fand
Lover of Cuchulain. Wife of Manannan
Scathatch
Female warrior goddess and instructor to Cuchulain. Mother of Uathach.
Sencha
A man of wisdom and advisor to Conchubar
Setanta (Cuchulain) (Cuchulainn)
Son of Dechtire and either Lug or Sualtim. His extraordinary power makes Lug more reasonable. There is also the issue of Sualtim not being appearing in the story until after Setanta's birth.
Sualtim (Sualtam)
Step-father of Cuchulain.
Uath
Giant who challenges Cuchulain
IdylleSeethes wrote:II Boy Deeds of Cuchulain
1. Chapter Summary
Setana left his mother and step-father as a young lad and moved in with King Conchubar and was raised by the group as proposed by Cathbad when Setana was born.
Setana killed a hound that was a protector of a home. As compensation Setana became the protector of the home until a replacement was raised. Setana took the name Cuchulain, hound of Culain. Cathbad, the Druid, foretold that the name would be famous.
Cuchulain trained as a warrior. His first fight was in anger. He killed Fainnle and 3 sons of Nechtan. When he returned to Emain, Conchubar had 150 naked women greet him, to subdue his anger.
2. Notes
The numbers 3 and 150, frequently expressed as 3 * 50 appear frequently.
This is obviously a pre-Christian story.
3. Tolkien Connections
The "hidden" leader, deserving of his position because of his heritage, was used by Tolkien for the ranger Strider/Aragorn/Elessar. The name change as the character progresses was also used, although Tolkien provides more steps.
Tolkien has a literal hound hero who is most visible in the Lays of Beleriand. Huan was captain/lord of the dogs/wolves. He protects Beren and Lúthien from Sauron, defeats Sauron and later dies in the quest for the Silmarils with Beren.
Huan spoke 3 times in his life. 3 shows up many times in Celtic stories, including Cuchulain.
Huan's true nature is uncertain. It is possible he was a Maia. This speculation is based on his ability to defeat Sauron, his inability to be enchanted (Sil 203 and LoB 236-237), that he was killed by Morgoth rather than some lesser creature, foreknowledge of events, and other circumstantial evidence. Cuchulain doesn't seem to be a god, but the son of a god (Lug), which we can assume is the origin of his extraordinary abilities.
4. Arthurian Connections
Merlin, a Druid like Cathbad, hides Arthur with a foster father until he comes of age. Arthur's name doesn't change, but his identity is obscure until he pulls the sword from the stone.
Alatar wrote:This is a much longer chapter and there's a lot in it of note. Foremost we see the arrogance of Setanta and his unswerving faith in his own abilities. When he arrives at Emain Macha he tackles 150 of the finest boy warriors in a game of hurling (incidentally the same number of naked women that are sent to cool his anger at the end of the chapter) and bests them. But it is not enough that he is recognised and put under their protection, he continues to fight them until they are placed under his protection and acknowledge him as their equal or indeed their superior. There is also a class system evident. They have disdain for him because they think him to be only the boy of some "common fighting man". His noble birth is a large factor in their acceptance of him.
The tale of how Setanta became Cuchulain is one of the most famous in Irish legend. There are various different versions to the tale, but all agree that he set out alone after a Hurling match to follow on the the feast at the house of Chulainn and that he found the hall already shut and the great hound released. In most tales he had nothing to defend himself with except his hurley and sliotar (hurling ball). In this version of the tale the sliotar is made of silver but in many versions it is a simple leather sliotar and he kills the hound by driving the sliotar into the throut of the hound, choking it. The version here is more dramatic but sticks to the basic essentials that Setanta as a child defended himself against a great hound with only a Hurley and Sliotar. Having killed the hound, Setanta set himself in service to the Chieftan Chulainn until such time as a whelp of the breed would be raised to replace him. He recieved his name in this way, "The Hound of Chulainn" or "Cú Chulainn". This was his name ever after, and also earned him the title "The Hound of Ulster" as the champion of Ulster in later days.
For background, Ulster is one of the four provinces of Ireland. Ulster comprises the Northern counties of Antrim, Armagh, Cavan, Donegal, Down, Fermanagh, Londonderry (or Derry), Monaghan and Tyrone. Only 6 of the counties of Ulster now remain under English rule. The remainder are part of the Irish Republic. Of course at the time of the stories writing all of Ireland was under English rule and at the time the stories are set there was no English rule. At the time, Ireland was under the rule of Chieftans nominally answerable to the Kings who were little more than chieftains themselves. It was not until the time of Brian Boru that Ireland was united under a single king. In this respect Brian Boru is like an Irish King Arthur, but he does not enter into this story.
Finding Tolkien parallels in this chapter is difficult and in some ways pointless because the style is so different to Tolkiens. What we do have is one notable juxtaposition of elements in the tales of Huan and Cuchulain. Where Huan could only die after meeting the greatest wolf ever to live, similarly Cuchulains first two triumphs were against foes who had similar prophecies applied to them. For Foill "neither point of spear or edge of sword can harm him" and for Tuachel "if he is not killed by the first stroke, or the first cast, or the first thrust, he cannot be killed at all". In both cases Cuchulainn defeats them in accordance with the prophecies. Also, Setanta took arms on the day he did because of a prophecy that told of the man who took arms on that day that "his name will be greater than any other name in Ireland. But his span of life will be short". There is a great weight given to prophecy both in Irish Mythology and in Tolkiens Mythology.
Alatar
Jnyusa wrote:This is not about Huan in particular, Idylle, but about hounds in general as they appear in legend. The giant hound, the hound from hell, seems to enjoy broad if infrequent appearance in a variety of genres.
It strikes me that the origin of the hellhound cannot be experiential, because a farming society's experience of fearsome dogs would not be solitary hounds but rather wolf packs. Dogs are tribal, orchestral, and therein lies the fear of their song and the threat of their attack.
So I entertain the idea that the hellhound is truly a metaphorical creature.
Why the shape of a dog would be chosen for this metaphor also strikes me as an interesting question. (Cujo, yes?) Or maybe the dog is seen as a potent symbol because we do not expect attack from a dog once it has been domesticated. The idea of a dog that kills people has an element of surprise and betrayal to it ...
The hound that Cuchulain is named after is not the hound that hunts the fox but a hound trained to kill human interlopers, a hound that Cuchulain must defeat with his own hand. Not just a dog, in other words. It's interesting.
The other element I find interesting is the repetition of the number 150 which Alatar pointed out. Numbers are always interesting when they appear in legends. Stories are often repeated so that the people will remember certain things, so I think it is legitimate to ask why this number in particular is important. Does anyone know why 150 would have had significance to that culture?
Jn
Jnyusa wrote:I found two cool reference pages on google - one for boars and their symbolism in early Celtic stuff, and the other for hounds and wolves in Germanic myth. The latter mentions Tolkien, and also refers to the "white eared hounds of Celtic myth" but without any elaboration or links. Info anyone?
boars
hounds
Jnyusa wrote:Yes, it's interesting, isn't it? I was trying to answer the question that Hobby raised as to whether there were boars in Ireland - I knew they were in England, but not everything can cross the sea, you know. One site led to another, as usual.
I still think the choice of 'dog' is perplexing in all its manifestations ... starting with Cerberus as the prototype. I do not accept the author's explanation that this is an obvious choice because dogs dig up and eat corpses. Dogs are not typically carrion eaters. It would be one thing for a pack to hunt and eat a human - though even that is uncommon because wild dogs/wolves do not typically prey on humans - none of the large predators do - but it would take a very unusual set of circumstances to cause a single dog to dig up and consume a corpse. Starvation basically, I guess.
It makes more sense to me that the underworld has a watchdog simply because humans do routinely use dogs for that purpose - to guard the gate. And a mythical place would have a fabulous beast.
Perseus has to slay Cerberus if memory serves. Perhaps Cuchulain is a copycat killer? The Irishification of the Greek myth? - but without the maiden in distress ... or perhaps the maiden comes later ... in any event the hero is not motivated by a woman.
Which leads by sloppy lateral thinking to that French expression, "cherchez la femme." John Fowles drew a sharp distinction between cultures sprung from Greek roots and those sprung from Roman roots - the former including the French. The centrality of love-inspired heroes to so many plots probably is a cultural preference. But I have always considered the Celtic culture to have been parented by Greek culture - the economic ties are very, very old. And the Celts did nothing but fight with the Romans until they were finally overthrown in their own land.
Cuchulain strikes me as the kind of hero that would come out of Sparta.
Jn
IdylleSeethes wrote:This is shaky ground for me, but I have a memory of a few indirect Irish/Greek connections.
Ireland was settled by Celts who reached it from the areas around Greece, probably Scythia, through Spain. This was during the period the Greeks were a major influence in the Mediterranean and before the Romans. The Irish Celts maintained their ties with Greeks. Their interaction with the Romans was infrequent and strained. The youthful years in St Patrick's story are indicative. The Irish claim to have not been conquered by the Romans, but the adult St. Patrick could be the basis for a claim that Roman Christianity overcame pagan/Celtic/Druidic Ireland as the Empire itself was waning in the 5th century. This bit of known Irish history actually connects better with the contemporary transition from Druidic to Christian represented in Arthurian mythology but oddly assigned to England and Wales which would have been Christian far earlier.
The important aspect of that is the connections between Celtic gods and goddesses to the continent is more likely to be through the Greeks than the Romans.
Ireland was invaded by the Milesians, supposedly around 1000BCE. It could have been anytime between 300 and 3000. The Milesians are descendants of Milesius, a Spanish Celt. I believe they are thought to have migrated from Scythia, on the fringes of Greek influence. There has been conjecture that the actual opponents of the Greeks at Troy were Celts.
Alatar wrote:It is certainly claimed here that the Romans never conquered Ireland. Not because they could not, but simply because they never bothered. There was very little here worth conquering to be honest! Norman architecture is the only evidence of foreign occupation in Ireland (naturally excepting English occupation). The popular opinion here is that although the Normans conquered Ireland they were also conquered in turn and were subsumed into the country. The phrase "more Irish then the Irish themselves" was coined for the Normans.
Unfortunately this absorbtion works both ways. The coming of Christianity destroyed much of our history. The Christian missionaries incorporated all of the druid holidays and feasts into the Christian Calendar even going so far as to create the Celtic Cross which combines the Christian Cross with elements of the druid faith like the Ring symbol and the serpent. Many Irish myths were distorted with Christian influences so that the original versions are no longer remembered. Irish heroes were suddenly tied in with Christian events, like Conall Cearnach at the Crucifiction, or the Children of Lír being freed from their Swan shapes by the blessing of a monk. Who knows what we lost in this insidious process. Again, the reference to St. Patrick "driving the snakes from Ireland" is thought to refer to his systematic eradication of the druid faith. Fortunately much is still remembered, unlike England where their mythology (if it ever existed) is lost forever.
Actually there's an amusing anectode about why the Romans never came to Ireland. Apparently a scout arrived by ship to determine whether Ireland was suitable for invasion. When he arrived the villages were empty and he assumed that the villagers had fled at the sight of the Roman ship. Proud of his nations ability to strike fear into the locals he pushed inland until he came upon a strange sight. There was a crowd gathered and bloodcurdling yells filled the air. He pushed forward and saw bodies lying broken in pools of blood and fierce skirmishes being cheered by the onlookers. He pulled a woman aside and asked her, "What great battle is this?" She looked at him scornfully. "Battle is it? Sure this is only a game of Hurling."
The scout advised the Roman legions to stop at England
Alatar
Jnyusa wrote:Alatar, thank youyes the Irish Celts were overthrown by the Roman culture, not by the Roman army.
I have, in one Irish history book, a poem that Irish children were forced to recite to learn the Roman Calendar (and forget their own, which has never been completel resurrected, btw). I'm pretty sure, though, that it dates to before the Norman Conquest, so yes, brought by missionaries rather than by armies.
I personally consider the conjoining of Roman culture and Christianity to have been an historical disaster. Someone, I think it was Paul Theroux, asked the interesting question of how differently Christianity might have evolved if it had been adopted by Marcus Aurelius instead of Constantine.
Jn
) with chapter 3...IdylleSeethes wrote:The Aoife-Cuchulain relationship is roughly of the Éowyn-Aragorn pattern.
Elrond and Aragorn had a strained relationship because of Arwen, but I think they had a better relationship than Cuchulain and Forgall.
Dindraug wrote:No, common minconception, but the people we now called Celtic (Irish, Welsh, Breton, Scot etc) are all the last vesiges of the Indo-European culture which also gave us Mycean Greek, Vedic Indian, Eretreia (and therfore Roman), Troy, Pre Germanic Scandinavia and Germany, Britains, Basques (sort of) etc etc etc.Jnyusa wrote:But I have always considered the Celtic culture to have been parented by Greek culture - the economic ties are very, very old. And the Celts did nothing but fight with the Romans until they were finally overthrown in their own land.
Big major super culture from the second and third millenia BCE, sort of took over when cutures like the Akean Hellianic, Henge building Western Atlantic culture etc fell in a mass climatic change around 1050BCE (yep, my BA dissertaition subject was based around this).
The roote myths are shared if old enough, or merged, or swaped. Cerebus as a figure became the guardian of the rainbow bridge, and has links found in the Veda's.
Celt itself means Hero, and Celtic was given to the cultures where the hero himself became the major driving force. There are other links, mostly religious (and wrongly asumed to be Druidic, which itself first appears as a religion in the second century BCE!).
As for the destruction of Celtic culture, well the celts themselves destroyed it regually, and overlaid it with the new cultural ideal. The urban Roman and Christian did much damage, but if you read the stories of the invasion history of Ireland, you see it has happened time and time again. Who now remembered the Formari except as dull witted giants? And who remembers Crom Cruach as a King rather than a worm or ghost?
Alatar wrote:There's a lot in this chapter and to be honest I've only been able to skim it because so much is referenced that has no bearing on the story. What comes across strongly is the strength and power of women in the mythology. At first glance this may not appear so, when traits like needlework and chastity are held up as 2 of the 6 virtues of a woman. Looking further though, there is no question that Cuchulainn sees Emer as an equal, and they debate in riddles as much to test each other's mettle as to disguise their speech from her handmaidens. Like Arwen and Lúthien, Emer's love for Cúchulainn is against her fathers wishes and she behaves in some ways like each of Tolkiens counterparts. Like Arwen, she does not openly defy her father, but like Lúthien she conspires with her lover for his victory. The Lúthien parallel becomes more obvious later as, like Thingol, Emer's father sends Cúchulainn on a quest that he hopes will claim his life. Like Beren, Cúchulainns quest takes him far from home into great danger but he survives betrayal through the help of friends unlooked for. In his absence Emer is approached with an offer of marriage, but she keeps her word to Cúchulainn and appeals to the honour and integrity of Lugaid not to take her for marriage when her love is given to another. Likewise, Cúchulainn has offers of love and marriage on his quest but remains true to Emer.
On the empowerment of women, Cúchulainn receives his training as a great warrior at the hands of a woman and is nearly bested by Aoife, also a woman. Bearing in mind that Cúchulainn is frequently shown to be stronger than a hundred men, this is no mean feat. True, Aoife is described as a Sorceress, but there is no indication that she used trickery or enchantment in her battle with him. She shatters his spear and breaks his sword. In fact Cúchulainn only manages to defeat her by trickery himself, distracting her with that she held most dear. We'll hear more about Aoife later.
One more interesting parallel, particularly for IS I would think. The Red Branch Knights and the Knights of the Round Table seem to have a lot in common, but with very different slants. In Arthurian myths, the Round Table is a place where all differences are set aside, and none may fight there (I think no weapons were allowed?). The Red Branch Knights have something similar, except that theirs is enforced by all other knights and there is an assortment of weapons at hand to ensure the peace is kept. Also, the importance on ones name and honour is here in different ways. Both will fight to the death over an insult.
I look forward to more indepth thoughts from the scholars!
Over to you gentlemen!
Alatar
We can stay at this point for a little while to allow any who wish to catch up the opportunity to do so.IdylleSeethes wrote:Tolkien
Aragorn and Elrond didn't get along that well, but…
You can see the progenitor of Éowyn as a female warrior falling in love with the hero she loses.
Arthurian
The Red Branch Knights (RBK) are similar in some ways to the Knights of the Round Table (KORT). The KORT seem to inherit from both the RBK and the Fianna. Starting with dissimilarities, the Fianna were infantry, the RBK rode chariots, and the KORT were cavalry. The RBK don't seem as cohesive. The Fianna and the KORT share the concept of an elite group following a code of conduct. The Fianna had to agree to the 4 geasas, which were rules of virtuous conduct, which seems similar to the KORT following the code of chivalry. The RBK were also an elite group, but don't seem to be governed by a code. The Fianna are a part of the Ossianic Cycle of stories written by Cormac Around 250 CE, which is disinct from the Ulster Cycle.
The full text is available here:
Cuchulainn of Muirthemne
I hope that this thread will flourish here as it was somewhat starved elsewhere.
Alatar
). But for now I'll just follow along until I catch up on reading.
