The Obama Phenomenon and the 2008 Presidential Campaign

[Faramond]

Given his advantage in money and his likelihood of winning the remaining contests in February, I think Obama is now the frontrunner, and Clinton the challenger.

But seriously, folks, can't we all just get along? I'm sure most of you will all soon be agreeing that the real devil here is McCain!

[Faramond]

There's a report that Romney is going to quit the race in his speech to CPAC scheduled to happen any moment now.

[Cerin]

So, are you saying it's the "vast right-wing-conspiracy"'s fault that Hilary said and did all those questionable things?

I'm saying there is an organized and zealous group of well-resourced people who hate and hated Hillary and relentlessly set themselves to destroy her reputation and character in the eyes of the nation, and they have succeeded brilliantly.

As far as solicitr's examples, I regard him as a propagandist with an agenda, based on my perception of his posting history here, and so am distrustful of anything he offers as proof of what I consider to be his highly biased point of view.

Yes, Hillary Clinton is a flawed human being just like the rest of us, and just like the rest of us -- and just like every other politician out there -- she undoubtedly has had moments that amply demonstrate that fact. Politics, and especially Washington politics, is an ugly game by all accounts, and there is plenty of ugliness to go around.


Voronwë and Ax, yes I understand that Hillary is short of money, and I understand that the debate format is less than ideal. However, what I want to know is, will all of the people who are constantly touting Obama's integrity and high ideals support a decision to deny the voters of the coming primary states additional opportunities to assess the candidates because it is to his strategic advantage, both in terms of media exposure and in terms of his relative debating ability?


edit

cross-post with Faramond. So I wonder if Huckabee will continue on, or if he'll make a VP deal with McCain.

[Faramond]

As far as solicitr's examples, I regard him as a propagandist with an agenda, based on my perception of his posting history here, and so am distrustful of anything he offers as proof of what I consider to be his highly biased point of view.

solicitr is not a propagandist with an agenda. He's clearly more conservative with you, but he's not an ideologue. He's come to different conclusions about Hillary Clinton than you, but that doesn't make him biased.

So I wonder if Huckabee will continue on, or if he'll make a VP deal with McCain.

I guess I wouldn't completely rule it out, but I don't see the real strategic advantage of such a move for McCain.

[solicitr]

As far as solicitr's examples, I regard him as a propagandist with an agenda, based on my perception of his posting history here, and so am distrustful of anything he offers as proof of what I consider to be his highly biased point of view.

Oh, fer gosh sakes. It was precisely because of my admitted viewpoint and the expected charge of 'propaganda' that I cited each point to 'The Nation's Newspaper of Record,' the New York Times.

Or is the Gray Lady propagandizing for the vast right-wing conspiracy too?

I wonder, Cerin, are you equally skeptical about the various accusations leveled at George Bush?

[Cerin]

I guess I wouldn't completely rule it out, but I don't see the real strategic advantage of such a move for McCain.

Well, there seemed to be three different voting blocks in the Republican primaries. The independents, the evangelical 'value' oriented conservatives (who went for Huckabee), and the Limbaugh-type conservatives (who went for Romney). Teaming with Huckabee might make it more likely that the second group, who don't seem to like McCain, would vote for the ticket. McCain seems already to be hated by the third group, so adding Huckabee probably wouldn't amount to a net loss there.

What sort of person do you think would be a strategic plus for McCain?

[Cerin]

I wonder, Cerin, are you equally skeptical about the various accusations leveled at George Bush?

You'd have to be more specific. I don't know what Bush has been accused of, beyond actual policy decisions that are a matter of fact and public record.

[elfshadow]

Cerin, I'm asking this not to be derisive or anything but only out of curiosity--is there anything about Barack Obama that causes you to particularly doubt his integrity? You just seem to be very skeptical of Obama, even though it's been hard for anyone to find "dirt" on him, but very defensive of Hillary, even though many people have found "dirt" on her. I'm just wondering why.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

As far as solicitr's examples, I regard him as a propagandist with an agenda, based on my perception of his posting history here, and so am distrustful of anything he offers as proof of what I consider to be his highly biased point of view.

Oh, fer gosh sakes. It was precisely because of my admitted viewpoint and the expected charge of 'propaganda' that I cited each point to 'The Nation's Newspaper of Record,' the New York Times.

If you are asked for specific examples, and you give specific examples, with citations to a particularly reputable source, there isn't anything else that you can do. If someone still insists on resorting to name-calling it only makes that person look bad.

I don't believe that Hillary Clinton is anywheres near in Richard Nixon's league when it comes to dirty politics and corruption, and I do think that many of the allegations against her have been greatly exaggerated, but I also think that there is plenty of spaghetti to stick to the wall

[Faramond]

I just read a transcript of Romney's speech. ( Well, skimmed it. I didn't want to fall asleep! ) He is, in fact, quitting the race.

[River]

Cerin, I'm asking this not to be derisive or anything but only out of curiosity--is there anything about Barack Obama that causes you to particularly doubt his integrity? You just seem to be very skeptical of Obama, even though it's been hard for anyone to find "dirt" on him, but very defensive of Hillary, even though many people have found "dirt" on her. I'm just wondering why.

What elsha said. Tracking your posts over the course of this thread you seem to take an "anybody but that guy" stance...what grounds do you have to dislike him so much? We've already gone around the block and back over Hillary. What, aside from a touted but questionable lack of experience, is so unlikable about the guy?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

There is a rumour that Al Gore is getting ready to endorse Obama.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-cle ... 85516.html

[River]

Wow.

Just out of curiousity, when he was VP, how did Gore get along with the Clintons?

[Ellienor]

I've heard that Gore and the Clintons did not get on all that great. Sorry, unsourced.

An attorney that I work with who worked in Chicago said that muckraking about Obama being sold a house at a substantial discount was untrue because an attorney friend of his who was close to the transaction said it was completely on the up-and-up. This is from staunch conservatives so that's impressive.

What's more worrisome to be is apparently a lot of emails circulating that Obama is a Muslim, that Obama is in league with Osama and getting Obama to the presidency is all an Al-Qaida plot..... I've seen copies of this trash. I console myself these people would never vote for a Democrat anyways, but still......

[Cerin]

Cerin, I'm asking this not to be derisive or anything but only out of curiosity--is there anything about Barack Obama that causes you to particularly doubt his integrity? You just seem to be very skeptical of Obama, even though it's been hard for anyone to find "dirt" on him, but very defensive of Hillary, even though many people have found "dirt" on her. I'm just wondering why.

I don't doubt Obama's integrity. There are three things that bother me about, as the thread title appropriately states, the phenomenon. (I mean no offense to Obama supporters in explaining my concerns and reactions.)

1. His lofty rhetoric strikes me as vague, empty and meaningless. That he is so gifted speaker as to get the kind of reaction he gets with rhetoric like this is worrisome to me (whereas it would not be, if I saw substance behind the words).

2. The adulation of his supporters appears to me to be inexplicable. That is, I could understand a mild enthusiasm for an attractive newcomer on the political scene, but I can't understand the seeming abandon with which people are surrendering themselves to this person as the fulfillment of such vague hopes and expectations as 'we can change the world'. It seems quasi-religious to me in nature, since I can't see the practical basis for the reaction. That is also worrisome.

3. I believe the only reason Obama is where he is today, is because the media, in service to its own interests, made him into a celebrity. He's essentially a media creation when it comes to his candidacy for President. That really bothers me (since I despise and loathe the celebrity-obsessed, corporate-owned, profit-motivated monster that passes for news media today). I guess you could say, I don't believe he's paid his political dues to have advanced to where he is. One of the reasons that's important is, that he is not seasoned on the national or international stage. We've seen the last eight years, what that can lead to.

So to clarify, I don't doubt that Obama is a fine person and a gifted politician. I don't think that warrants his supplanting finer, more seasoned, more experienced candidates by dint of his media-gifted celebrity status and charisma, and that's what has me in a bit of a twist. I'll vote for him if he's the nominee, but not without regret for what might have been, in a system that valued money and celebrity less and other things more.


Regarding name-calling, I thought it better to explain why I didn't trust solicitr's citations, than to just say I didn't trust them.


edit for grammar

[vison]

Interesting article in Vanity Fair a month or so ago about the Clinton/Gore relationship. Can't recall which month, though.

[Cerin]

An attorney that I work with who worked in Chicago said that muckraking about Obama being sold a house at a substantial discount was untrue because an attorney friend of his who was close to the transaction said it was completely on the up-and-up.

NBC covered this the other day on the nightly news. What they said -- and the realtor confirmed -- was that the house Obama wanted couldn't be sold unless the empty lot adjacent to it was sold on the same day (this was the seller's stipulation). Obama couldn't afford to buy the house and the lot, so on the day he closed on the house, the wife of that friend under investigation bought the lot. It seems rather clear that she did so as a favor to him, so that he could buy the house he wanted (unless you believe in bizarre coincidences).

I point this out simply to make the point that I believe we all know the kind of media coverage and accompanying revilement this would have engendered had it been Hillary who had accepted such a favor from the wife of a long-time associate under investigation for criminal activity.

[Ellienor]

Well, I'm kind of garbling the story, obviously. However, is "felonious" accurate? I was told the associate was not convicted of anything, merely indicted, and the indictment was "shaky". The point was that this Chicago attorney said that the whole thing was made out to be shady and in fact it wasn't.

[Cerin]

I hasten to admit that I don't know the details about the friend. I'll go and change it to something more appropriate.

[Maria]

Wow! I've been having trouble deciding which one I like better: McCain or Obama, and now that I've read a bit about each one, the one I'm overwhelmingly impressed by is McCain. The bio on his official site is interesting, but the one on wikipedia goes into much more detail and I can't help feeling that here is a tough as nails guy who also does the right thing- despite opposition and party lines.



"I am older than dirt and have more scars than Frankenstein." John McCain, 2007



So, even though I voted for Obama in the primary, I'm going to vote for McCain later on, if he's on the ticket. Obama can be prez later, he's got plenty of years ahead of him.