Jews for Jesus

Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:16 am

This was split from another thread. Which in turn had been split from yet another thread. See below for more details.

But it might be worth its own discussion, at some point. Its a subject that has always puzzled me.

Post by **Impenitent** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:03 am

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:But it might be worth its own discussion, at some point. Its a subject that has always puzzled me.

Could you specify? Which subject has always puzzled you? I'm unclear.

Post by **Jnyusa** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:07 am

Imp, I think Voronwë was referring to the Jews for Jesus.

Myself, I question whether there really is such a movement. There was, in Philadelphia about twenty years ago, a big 'coming out' of the Jews for Jesus ... but it turned out that they were organized by a Christian minister and that most of them were not in fact Jews but Christians from his church claiming some Jewish ancestry.

Jn

Post by **Impenitent** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:12 am

They exist here, in Melbourne, certainly. In fact, a few years ago there was major furore when one of the progressive rabbis in the community (a troubled man; he seemed to have been searching for some kind of solace for many years) suddenly found Jesus during an interfaith men's service.

He subsequently began to offer worship services, sharing space and pulpit at a local unitarian church and calling himself a messianic Jew.

ETA: Through his website (which I can't find anymore; it's been about 5 years since I looked at it out of curiosity) I found links to groups elsewhere in Oz and other parts of the English speaking world - mainly the US. He and his congregation are certainly not an isolated cell.

ETA2: Went googling...found pages of hits on his name, Harold Vallins.

Truly glad my name isn't author of this thread!

Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:21 am

Here is the "Statement of Faith" from their website:

We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are divinely inspired, verbally and completely inerrant in the original writings and of supreme and final authority in all matters of faith and life.

We recognize the value of traditional Jewish literature, but only where it is supported by or conformable to the Word of God. We regard it as in no way binding upon life or faith.

We believe in one sovereign God, existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, perfect in holiness, infinite in wisdom, unbounded in power and measureless in love; that God is the source of all creation and that through the immediate exercise of His power all things came into being.

We believe that God the Father is the author of eternal salvation, having loved the world and given His Son for its redemption.

We believe that Jesus the Messiah was eternally pre-existent and is co-equal with God the Father; that He took on Himself the nature of man through the virgin birth so that He possesses both divine and human natures.

We believe in His sinless life and perfect obedience to the Law; in His atoning death, burial, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, high-priestly intercession and His personal return in power and glory.

We believe that the Holy Spirit is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Son; that He was active in the creation of all things and continues to be so in providence; that He convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment, and that He regenerates, sanctifies, baptizes, indwells, seals, illumines, guides and bestows His gifts upon all believers.

We believe that God created man in His image; that because of the disobedience of our first parents at the Garden of Eden they lost their innocence and both they and their descendants, separated from God, suffer physical and spiritual death and that all human beings, with the exception of Jesus the Messiah, are sinners by nature and practice.

We believe that Jesus the Messiah died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, as a representative and substitutionary sacrifice; that all who believe in Him are justified, not by any works of righteousness they have done, but by His perfect righteousness and atoning blood and that there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.

We believe that Israel exists as a covenant people through whom God continues to accomplish His purposes and that the Church is an elect people in accordance with the New Covenant, comprising both Jews and Gentiles who acknowledge Jesus as Messiah and Redeemer.

We believe that Jesus the Messiah will return personally in order to consummate the prophesied purposes concerning His kingdom.

We believe in the bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, the everlasting blessedness of the saved and the everlasting conscious punishment of the lost.

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/about/statementoffaith

I don't understand why they don't just call themselves Christians.

Post by **Impenitent** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:23 am

Quite so.

They are definitely not Jews.

Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:25 am

Impenitent wrote:Truly glad my name isn't author of this thread!

I was careful to make sure that it was mine. But is there a particular reason why you would not want to be associated with it? Would you rather the thread did not exist?

Post by **halplm** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:26 am

I think they would call themselves Christians.

It would appear they also want to maintain their Jewish heritage, which is perfectly understandable.

Post by **Impenitent** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:34 am

You would think so and that sounds straightforward, but it isn't always so.

From an interview with Harold Vallins

A lot of Christians automatically ask me, ‘When did you become a Christian?’ But I’m not a Christian. I’m a Jew and will always remain a Jew. I’ve become a Jewish follower of a Jewish Messiah. I’m a fulfilled Jew, a completed Jew. My Judaism has become far more complete. Love has been added. Jesus added love to Judaism. I am sure if you had asked Paul he would have said the same. Jesus helped fulfil his Judaism. He made it more complete. I don’t think Jesus talked about setting up a new religion.

'Messianic' Jews have a supercessionist philosophy underpinning their beliefs.

Post by **Jnyusa** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:36 am

Hal: It would appear they also want to maintain their Jewish heritage, which is perfectly understandable.

Unless they're not really Jews. I do continue to question the claim that all of them converted from Judaism.

We recognize the value of traditional Jewish literature, but only where it is supported by or conformable to the Word of God. We regard it as in no way binding upon life or faith.

Excuse me, but anyone who believes this is a Christian, not a Jew. It's just a paraphrase of the apostolic creed.

See, I don't get how baking kugel could make you a Jew if you believed something like this. It's one thing to be agnostic and affiliated primarily through culture, something else to actually convert to another religion.

Jn

Post by **Cerin** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:36 am

I know a Jew who accepted Christ. Her family held a funeral for her, but she considers herself both alive and still a Jew.

Post by **Faramond** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:38 am

Well ...

I always figured the name "Jews for Jesus" was meant to be a message to regular Jews that they should be for Jesus too.

I guess I consider "Jews for Jesus" a propaganda name. Maybe that's not fair, though.

Post by **Jnyusa** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:39 am

I think there is a parallel between this and Mormonism. It's not enough to consider yourself a Jew if what you believe in is repudiated by Judaism.

Faramond: my impression is the same, that the title is propagandistic.

Jn

Post by **halplm** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:40 am

But it IS a culture, isn't it? It's rooted in an ancient nationality, is it not?

I'm sure many of them did not convert from practicing judaism, but I don't see why it's so horrible if they did. I mean there are plenty of Christians that convert to other religions...

I dont' know, I guess I'm just confused about the the separation or lack thereof between culture and religion...

Post by **Jnyusa** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:43 am

Hal: I guess I'm just confused about the the separation or lack thereof between culture and religion...

That's the discussion that we're having over here -->

What is Jewishness

Jn

Post by **Cerin** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:44 am

Well then, that would answer some of the questions that came up in the thread tp started. You would say people can declare others to have become un-Jewish, regardless of their ancestry and upbringing. So then, Jewishness cannot be in any way ethnic or cultural, since no one can strip this woman of her ancestry, experiences, memories, self-identity or beliefs. Jewishness, then, must be determined by belief only.

Post by **Impenitent** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:46 am

I'm sure many of them did not convert from practicing judaism, but I don't see why it's so horrible if they did. I mean there are plenty of Christians that convert to other religions...

There's nothing horrible about a Jew converting to Christianity (or Buddhism, or any other religion). The problem is with a convert claiming to still be practicing Judaism 'but better'.

If a Christian converts to Islam, would you consider it honest and true if that person called him/herself a 'Christian for Allah' and claimed to still be a Christian, but a more fulfilled and true Christian? After all, they haven't rejected Jesus, they have simply accepted Mohammed and are now calling God, Allah instead. Would you consider that a true representation of Christianity?

Post by **Cerin** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:51 am

Imp, I think that illustrates perfectly uniqueness of being a Jew, in that it is identified as both an ethnic and a religious designation. That does not hold true for the other example.

Post by **Jnyusa** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:53 am

I just realized that I have an intolerance button, and that this topic pushes it.

Jn

eta: Cerin, we cross-posted. That was not an answer to your post, just an unrelated moment of self-awareness.

Post by **Impenitent** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:01 am

Cerin wrote:Imp, I think that illustrates perfectly uniqueness of being a Jew, in that it is identified as both an ethnic and a religious designation. That does not hold true for the other example.

Could you elaborate on both how that holds for Judaism and how it does not hold for Christianity?

Because your statement makes no sense to me whatsoever as it stands.

Jn, I may also have to remove myself from this discussion. Supercessionism is one amongst the small number of ideologies for which I have no tolerance whatsoever.