Jews for Jesus

[Cerin]

Voronwë, thank you so much for posting that.

[Frelga]

do you mean that a Jew would need to have that as their central statement of faith? My understanding was that this is in fact true for religious Jews, and saying "central statement of faith" would exclude adherents of other religions who might otherwise be comfortable with the statement, but not as a central expression of their beliefs.

If I understood your question, then the answer is yes, IMO. For a religious Jew Shema is a sufficient and comprehensive statement of faith. An adherent of another religion might find that Shema fits within his/her beliefs, but it is not necessarily central and definitely not comprehensive. Did I get you right?

I know you know this, but for others who might not, a nitpicky thing about the Shema, from another member of the TMI Department. The expression of faith is not just the first line that Frelga quoted, Sh'ma yisrael, adonai eloheinu, adonai echad - but includes Deuteronomy 6:4-9, Deuteronomy 11:13-21, and Numbers 15:37-41.

"And you shall love the Lord your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your resources" (Deut. 6:5).

TP, you are, of course, correct. However, i is the first line of Shema that summarizes the Jewish belief about God. The rest I see as sort of a frame that serves to highlight how central the observance of God's mitzvoth is to Jewish life.

(Just trying to understand what the main criteria are - it seems that Frelga and tp disagree?)

I think TP and I do agree, and she was clarifying my statement. But if I am mistaken, I'm sure she will correct me.

tp posted somewhere on this board about the process to convert to Judaism, and from what I understand, just saying "I believe in all the Jewish doctrines" would not make you a Jew or would it? I remember you said you'd have to be immersed in a ritual bath and only then would you be a Jew.

Not exactly, I think. Mikveh - ritual immersion - doesn't "make" one a Jew. A Jew by birth doesn't have to undergo immersion in order to become Jewish. A convert has to undergo a rigorous course of study and be "accepted" by the religious court of respected members of community.

I do understand what you are getting at, even though I feel the parallel is not very precise. One can't just say he's a Christian and be accepted by other Christians as one, and one can't just say he's Jewish and be accepted by other Jews as such.

Voronwë, Yes, that was the other elephant in the room. I didn't know how to approach that subject without appearing somehow to point to the lovely folks of this board, which would be terribly unfair. But yes, that was definitely part of the reason behind the "gut reaction" that I and it appears others experienced in this discussion.

[vison]

The elephant is sneaking out now, I think. He did his job, is one way of looking at it.

It wasn't for me, a gentile and an unbeliever, to poke the elephant so he'd make noise.

[Alatar]

I must be incredibly thick. I didn't even know there was an elephant.

I guess growing up in Ireland has made me blind to some of the persecutions that others face. I have heard that a Synagogue was burned in Limerick back in the early 1900's but that is the sum total of the anti-semitism I have ever heard of or encountered in my life here. Despite the prevalent belief outside of this country I have never heard of any protestant victimisation in the South. Even in the North, the issue is not one of religion but of national identity. I understand that because Ireland is 90% Catholic there might be the assumption that I simply do not see the bigotry or am blind to the persecution. That's not the case. It's simply not an issue here. With 800 years of British occupation we had other things to worry about than who worshipped at what altar.

[truehobbit]

I guess I knew there was this elephant, but I tried to pretend it wasn't there, because it's so sad.

It's good that you explained that visceral reaction, Voronwë, because I do understand being subject to an emotion whether one wants it or no and even if it goes against what one really thinks. I'm sorry it makes dicussion here so difficult for you and others and I understand the negative gut-reaction.
Having to feel that people bear you a kind of involuntary, instinctive grudge because of an automatic association, however, is painful, too.
You did say that you meant no reference to people here, though, so my hope is that, when that emotion comes up, you are nevertheless aware of what kind of emotion it is and that it doesn't apply to the current group and discussion.


Just a little nitpick :

As is true of others here, the bulk of my family was exterminated by people who called themselves Christians (though of course they were not acting as Christians)

The Nazis didn't call themselves Christians. They deliberately tried to abolish Christianity because they realised it was harmful to their own cult.
This is not to deny the anti-semitism rampant among some who called themselves Christians, of course.

One can't just say he's a Christian and be accepted by other Christians as one, and one can't just say he's Jewish and be accepted by other Jews as such.

Yes, and after all that concentration on showing that the people who insisted the guy was a Jew were wrong, I also wanted to point out that the people here who insisted the guy was a Christian were wrong, too.

[anthriel]

VMan, I think it took an incredible amount of trust and bravery on your part to try to analyze what it was you were feeling, there. And, of course, to share it.

I knew there was something that was causing ancillary stress, but I didn't know what it was. I thought it was just about one religion trying to negate another, and the folks on the side being negated weren't too happy about that.

But in the absence of any feedback from the posts I made postulating that theory, I figured I wasn't quite putting my finger on it.

I'm so incredibly sorry that there are people on this board, people who are so much closer to my heart than seems reasonable, who are carrying this lingering burden of pain. I would apologize for the actions of the many "Christians" who caused that pain, but I can't apologize FOR them- it wasn't me. And apologizing won't really help it go away, will it?

The past is there, and acknowledging the elephant is something of a relief, I think. Ignoring it creates this chafing effect, where the people feeling the lingering effects of such a brutal past feel like-- perhaps-- they should be somewhat hushed about that pain, for fear of alienating people that they love, who they KNOW didn't participate, personally, in such incredible horrors. And yet... it happened. It has its effects.

Just know that I feel like you all, you quirky little family that I have grown to love, mean a great deal to me. It grieves me that I could be perceived to be, on whatever visceral level, as representative of people who would inflict such a horror. I feel so much more a part of YOU than of the monsters who would do such a thing. And yet....

I do feel your echoes of pain. I cannot help you endure it, because I haven't that right.

But I ache that you ache.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I think TP and I do agree, and she was clarifying my statement. But if I am mistaken, I'm sure she will correct me.

Preferably in 1000 words or less.

Anthy (and everyone):

[nerdanel]

I think TP and I do agree, and she was clarifying my statement. But if I am mistaken, I'm sure she will correct me.

Preferably in 1000 words or less.

Is there any rule against attacking Thains with salmons? No? Good!

Frelga and Hobby - Frelga's absolutely right. I was just clarifying, because I was first introduced to the Shema as a one sentence statement of faith, and when I started going to services, I was startled, at first, to see that it went on for three pages.

And yes, Frelga, that's what I meant - that for others, such as Christians, the Shema might fit within their beliefs, but would not necessarily be a central or comprehensive statement of faith.

I reserve the remainder of my Thain-allotted 1000 words for use at a later date.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

[Primula Baggins]

You can have all the words I didn't use in this post, too.

You use them better.

[Frelga]

You did say that you meant no reference to people here, though, so my hope is that, when that emotion comes up, you are nevertheless aware of what kind of emotion it is and that it doesn't apply to the current group and discussion.

No, of course not. Quite the contrary, I can't think of any other group where I could speak up as I did about my faith and my experience. I have a huge amount of trust and respect for people here, or I wouldn't ever enter a thread like this one.

I would never presume to speak for Chief Faithful, but in my case, at least, the reaction was to the idea expressed, not to the people who expressed it. The mildest way I can put it in words is that when I read that Christians consider themselves Jews a thought crosses my mind that some of them have a funny way of showing it.

Just know that I feel like you all, you quirky little family that I have grown to love, mean a great deal to me. It grieves me that I could be perceived to be, on whatever visceral level, as representative of people who would inflict such a horror. I feel so much more a part of YOU than of the monsters who would do such a thing.

I know Anthy. I really do. I think that's why I was reluctant to bring up "the elephant" - because I was aware that the people I love and admire the most were bound to be pained. But I think V made a good call, as usual - because there've been some fairly strong words used here, such as "distaste", and it's fair explain what's behind them.

As for you, Anthy-pet, you are a representative of angels bearing cookies, that's what you are a representative of.

[Ethel]

My father grew up in Washington DC in the 1930's and 40's. I remember him telling me that many of the beaches in the area were posted "White Gentiles Only". This filled me with horror as a young person, and I daresay that's partly why he told me. And went on to say, "And we thought it was great!" He knew how much I would hate this, and he said it to bait me.

It's not that long ago.

I'm a little bit like tp in that I always felt a great sense of connection to Jews. I claim no kinship. Only a great interest and sympathy.

[anthriel]

Just know that I feel like you all, you quirky little family that I have grown to love, mean a great deal to me. It grieves me that I could be perceived to be, on whatever visceral level, as representative of people who would inflict such a horror. I feel so much more a part of YOU than of the monsters who would do such a thing.

I know Anthy. I really do. I think that's why I was reluctant to bring up "the elephant" - because I was aware that the people I love and admire the most were bound to be pained. But I think V made a good call, as usual - because there've been some fairly strong words used here, such as "distaste", and it's fair explain what's behind them.

As for you, Anthy-pet, you are a representative of angels bearing cookies, that's what you are a representative of.

I know that that was a pretty emotional post, and I am so glad that you took it the way you did (as if I ever need to worry about YOU, Frelga. You are so generous a spirit, you really are... the more I know of you, the more I am dazzled by you, and I had no idea that was even possible... )

I wrote that yesterday morning, after having faced a situation that could have caused the deaths of my daughter, myself, and the deaths of innocent strangers... and those deaths would have been solely my fault.

I also had had no sleep, NOT a state, in my experience, condusive to nonemotional thought patterns.

So thank you for withstanding my bit of melodramatic emoting. I am glad you and others (VMan ) TOLD me about the elephant.. I had an idea he was there, but I just couldn't see him.

And when you let me know about those pestilent pachyderms, however difficult that is for you to do, you allow us to be more free to unite on the side I really want to be on... the same side, the side of sanity, tolerance, love and understanding.

Not total agreement, I doubt anyone can achieve that... but, well, respect and empathy, for sure.

You have both from me.



Cookie?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

*munch, munch*

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

Just to lighten the mood a little.

I remember him telling me that many of the beaches in the area were posted "White Gentiles Only".

A nudist beach I presume?

[JewelSong]

Just to lighten the mood a little.

I remember him telling me that many of the beaches in the area were posted "White Gentiles Only".

A nudist beach I presume?

My Dad grew up in Brooklyn and had many Jewish friends. A story he loved to tell was how he once made the minyon at a briss. A college friend was having the briss, and being quite poor, the briss was held at the friend's apartment and the moyel did the ceremony on the kitchen table.

My father was a bit concerned about being the 10th man, since he was not Jewish. But they HAD to have the minyon for the briss, so his friend just told him that as long as he kept his pants ON, no one would know and God would surely understand. (The Jews, among other things, are imminently practical.)

My father always considered this event a great honor. He spoke of it with pride and a bit of humility.

[Ethel]

A nudist beach I presume?

Heh. I doubt they were actually policing the, um, members. In any case, the great majority of American men are circumcised at birth. This was true even in my father's generation. I imagine the sign was just to make Jewish people feel unwelcome.

Jewel - lovely story.

[Frelga]

And that reminds me of a joke I read a while ago.

American South, 1950s. A local woman decides to invite a few GIs to her house for a Thanksgiving dinner. She calls the military base and asks the Captain to make sure that the soldiers he sends over are not Jewish. He assures her that he understands.

Come Thanksgiving, there is a knock on her door. She opens to find three black soldiers on the doorstep. She stutters in confusion, "There must be some mistake here!"

One of the soldiers replies, "Impossible. Captain Rosenblum never makes mistakes, ma'm."

Jewel, lovely story, yes.

[Holbytla]

and the three-headed God thing is just such a distraction... Christianity believes in One God. As far as I can tell, the whole Trinity idea is the notion that God can communicate with a human in different ways. There are not three Gods. There is one.

I could never really wrap my head around the Trinity, but I had it explained to me by a priest.
He asked me if I ever had Harlequin ice cream? Of course I said yes.
He said the Trinity was the same thing. Three different flavors, but one ice cream.
The father, the son, the holy spirit.

If I may, I would like to turn things around a bit.
There are many different societies and religions here on earth. All have their own beliefs. I have no idea who if any are correct in their beliefs. I suspect that we really cannot conceptualize God. I don't think we are adequate for the task.
I would imagine though that God has governance over the whole planet and everything in it. We may have a multitude of beliefs, but He has only one. He is the God of all of us, regardless of our beliefs.
Different religions sprouted for different reasons, but God has only one religion. I have no idea what that religion is, but I expect God would have an ulcer if He were not infallable, just thinking about religion and the issues it has caused over the years.
There is one God. Creator of all. God of all.
Does it really have to go any further than that?

[Sunsilver]

I would be totally comfortable reciting Shema. I'm not sure I could call it the MAIN declaration of my faith, because it leaves a great deal out. I mean, I'd not want to be restricted to reciting that only.

Cerin, Shema is meant to be the MAIN declaration of faith. Theology of Judaism in a nutshell. Which, now that I think about it, answers TP's erstwhile question - what Jews need to believe to be considered Jews in a religious sense. Shema is it.

As a Jew, there's nothing I need to add and indeed nothing I CAN add. As a Christian, it is essential that you add your belief in Jesus as your Savior or nobody would know that you are Christian.

I do know that Christians believe that Three is One. For (please forgive me a Pratchett reference, which I just can't resist) a given value of One. BTW, Jewish authorities were divided on the subject of whether to consider Christianity a monotheistic religion, but not willing to make too much fuss.

I'd just like to interject a comment here that the doctrine of the Trinity was a matter of considerable argument during the early centuries of the church. To this day, it remains one of the most difficult concepts for Christians to grasp. (Believe me, we fully understand why other religions have trouble with it!) There are a few scriptures that support it, but it's been awhile since I've needed to reference them. I know that there is at least one place in the NT where Jesus says "I and the Father are one. He who has seen me has seen the Father," and elsewhere, "Before Moses was, I AM," meaning he had existed before Moses, and as a part of God. ("I am" in the OT only refers to God.) The first verses of Genesis refer to the Spirit of God moving on the waters, and this is one of the verses used to support the presence of the Holy Spirit.

As for the Shema, in Matthew Chaper 22, Jesus is asked "Which is the first commandment of all?"

Jesus said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Anglicans who use the Book of Common Prayer hear these verses from the Bible every Sunday. It is a key part of the liturgy I grew up with, but it wasn't until I learned about Christianity's Jewish roots that I understood the full importance of the verse from Deuteronomy (the Shema.)

I can fully understand the appeal of 'Jews for Jesus'. Christianity has drifted so far away from its Jewish roots that the full significance of much of what is in the Bible has been lost to all but religious scholars. Part of this has been deliberate, due to anti-Semetism in the Church. I was in my 30's before I learned that Jesus was celebrating the Passover Seder with his disciples the night he was betrayed, and exactly what that supper involved and signified. Understanding Jesus's Jewishness just wasn't considered important in the church I grew up in.

I have had friends in the past who considered themselves Messianic Jews. Some were originally Christian, and wanted to embrace the Jewish traditions as well, others were originally Jewish. I'd like to make a distinction here between Messianic Jews, and the ORGANIZATION known as Jews for Jesus.

I have a friend who used to work for this organization. Their tactics are extremely aggressive, and are along the lines of a mass marketing campaign (at best) or even a cult (at worst.) She was expected to make a certain number of 'contacts' every day, and, if I recall the situation correctly, was dismissed from her job for failing to fulfill her 'quota'. To see how they have treated some of their other employees, go here: http://www.exjewsforjesus.org/stories.html . While I have sympathy and understanding for Messianic Jews, (those who embrace Jewish tradition, and acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah), I would advise everyone to steer well clear of Jew for Jesus, the organization!