The faith of Abraham

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Cerin
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The faith of Abraham

Post by Cerin »

The New Testament makes a great deal about the faith of Abraham, that is, Abraham's response to God.

In the Old Testament we get to see the things Abraham says and does.

I'd like at some point to discuss the concept of faith in a general way. And I thought this would be a good foundation for that eventual conversation, to see if Jews and Christians think about this character and this concept in a similar way (and of course we are most interested in what non Jews and Christians think as well).

Some of the questions I have are:

How do the Jews primarily think about Abraham. Is it in terms of his response to God? What do you say about it?

What was so special about Abraham that God spoke to him out of everyone? Was there something special? Can we know what it was?

How would we characterize Abraham's response to God? Do we agree that 'faithful' describes it, or is there some other way we would primarily characterize the kind of person Abraham was and the kind of attitude toward and relationship with God he had?

The first mention of Abraham (then Abram) is in Chapter 11 of Genesis. I have what's called the New King James version of the Bible. This is Gen. Chap. 11:27 through Chap. 12:9:
27This is the genealogy of Terah: Terah begot Abram, Nahor, and Haran. Haran begot Lot.

28And Haran died before his father Terah in his native land, in Ur of the Chaldeans.

29Then Abram and Nahor took wives: the name of Abram's wife was Sarai, and the name of Nahor's wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran the father of Milcah and the father of Iscah.

30But Sarai was barren; she had no child.

31And Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot, the son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram's wife, and they went out with them from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the land of Canaan; and they came to Haran and dwelt there.

32So the days of Terah were two hundred and five years. and Terah died in Haran.

12
1Now the Lord had said to Abram:

"Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father's house,
To a land that I will show you.
2I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

4So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

5Then Abram took Sarai his wife and Lot his brother's son and all their possessions that they had gathered, and the people whom they had acquired in Haran, and they departed to go to the land of Canaan. So they came to the land of Canaan.

6Abram passed through the land to the place of Shechem, as far as the terebinth tree of Moreh. And the Canaanites were then in the land.

7Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land."

And there he built an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him.

8And he moved from there to the mountain east of Bethel, and he pitched his tent with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east; there he built an altar to the Lord and called on the name of the Lord.

9So Abram journeyed, going on still toward the South.
I note that Abram's brother, Nahor, marries the daughter of his dead brother Haran, and that God tells Abram to go away from his family, but he ends up accompanied by the son of his dead brother. It occurs to me that both of these things might reflect some cultural imperative for looking out for the children of deceased siblings.

So what do people think about Abram from these passages? What strikes you? What do people think about God from these passages? What strikes you? Do they tell us anything about faith?
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Post by Frelga »

Cerin, I would LOVE to discuss this, as Abraham is one of the most powerful and complex characters in the Bible. I JUST DON'T HAVE THE TIME! :bawl:

I don't suppose there's any chance that we could reschedule this for next week?

:hug:
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Would it be horribly hypocritical of me to post some lyrics from a song?

Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."


(From "Highway 61 Revisited" by Robert Zimmerman aka Bob Dylan)

:P

There is a scene in the great Jewish writer Herman Wouk's book "War and Remembrance" in which one of his characters, the agnostic Jewish author of the book "A Jew's Jesus", Aaron Jastrow, holds forth on the story of Abraham and Isaac while hiding out in the home of a Jewish plumber in Marsielles named Mendelson.
Ever since his arrival, Aaron had been holding forth at table, overawing even Mendelson. Tonight he was in good form. The sacrifice of Isaac came up, for it was in the Sabbath Torah reading. Mendelson had a brash atheist of a son-in-law named Velvel, his partner in the plumbing business, characterized by a lot of bushy red hair and strong opinions. Velvel said the story exposed the Jewish God as a fictive Asian despot, and the author as a Bronze Age savage. Coolly Aaron put Velvel down. "The story's about Abraham, not God, don't you understand, Velvel? Even a goy like Kierkegaard could see that. ReadFear and Trembling some time. The people of Father Abraham's time burned children to their gods. Archaeology confirms it. Yes, Abraham took up the knife. Why? To show for all time that he cared no less for God than the pagans did for their bloody idols. He trusted God to make him drop the knife before he hurt the boy. That's the whole point of the story."

"Beautiful," said Mendelson, adjusting a large black yarmulka on his white hair. "That's a beautiful interpretation. I must read Kierkegaard."

"And suppose," Velvel grumbled, "God hadn't told the old fanatic to drop the knife?"

"Why, the Bible would end at Genesis twenty-two," Aaron retorted, smiling. "There'd have been no Jewish people, no Christianity, no modern world. Holocausts of children might still be going on. But you see, He did tell him to drop it. Western civilization turns on that stark fact. God wants our love, not the ashes of our children."
Works for me. :)
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Post by Frelga »

More lyrics? I'm off to scout for another fridge magnet. :twisted: =:) :twisted:

That is possibly one of the most profound interpretations of Sacrifice of Itzhak I've ever seen. :love:
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Post by Cerin »

:love: :love: :love:

Yes, Frelga, I'd be happy to hold off until you have more time.
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Post by Pearly Di »

Frelga wrote:That is possibly one of the most profound interpretations of Sacrifice of Itzhak I've ever seen. :love:
I second that. 8)

I love those Bob Dylan lyrics, Voronwë! :D
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Post by JewelSong »

Story of Isaac
by Leonard Cohen
(as sung by Judy Collins)

The door it opened slowly,
My father he came in,
I was nine years old.
And he stood so tall above me,
His blue eyes they were shining
And his voice was very cold.
He said, "I've had a vision
And you know I'm strong and holy,
I must do what I've been told."
So he started up the mountain,
I was running, he was walking,
And his axe was made of gold.

You who build these altars now
To sacrifice these children,
You must not do it anymore.
For you've never had a vision
And you never have been tempted
By the devil or the Lord
You who stand above them now,
Your hatchets blunt and bloody,
You were not there before,
When I lay upon a mountain
And my father's hand was trembling
With the beauty of the word.

And if you call me brother now,
Forgive me if I ask,
"According to whose plan?"
When it all comes down to dust
I will kill you if I must,
I will help you if I can.
And may I never learn to scorn
The body out of chaos born
The woman and the man
And mercy on our uniform,
Man of peace or man of war,
The peacock spreads his fan.
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame

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Post by Jnyusa »

Jewel, I love that song. :love:

That's not the original version, though. That's the version sung by ... oh shoot, senior moment, her name just escaped my memory ... Judy Collins!

Cohen wrote more verses in the middle, and the ending is a bit different, iirc. I'll see if I can find it online.

Jn

Aha. Here it is.

The door it opened slowly,
my father he came in,
I was nine years old.
And he stood so tall above me,
his blue eyes they were shining
and his voice was very cold.
He said, "I've had a vision
and you know I'm strong and holy,
I must do what I've been told."
So he started up the mountain,
I was running, he was walking,
and his axe was made of gold.

Well, the trees they got much smaller,
the lake a lady's mirror,
we stopped to drink some wine.
Then he threw the bottle over.
Broke a minute later
and he put his hand on mine.
Thought I saw an eagle
but it might have been a vulture,
I never could decide.
Then my father built an altar,
he looked once behind his shoulder,
he knew I would not hide.

You who build these altars now
to sacrifice these children,
you must not do it anymore.
A scheme is not a vision
and you never have been tempted
by a demon or a god.
You who stand above them now,
your hatchets blunt and bloody,
you were not there before,
when I lay upon a mountain
and my father's hand was trembling
with the beauty of the word.

And if you call me brother now,
forgive me if I inquire,
"Just according to whose plan?"
When it all comes down to dust
I will kill you if I must,
I will help you if I can.
When it all comes down to dust
I will help you if I must,
I will kill you if I can.
And mercy on our uniform,
man of peace or man of war,
the peacock spreads his fan.

There's also a beautiful sung version of this story by Naomi Shemer, an Israeli singer/songwriter who was very popular in the 60s and 70s. But I only know it in Hebrew and don't think I would be up to a translation.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Story of Isaac
by Leonard Cohen
(as sung by Judy Collins)


That's not the original version, though. That's the version sung by ... oh shoot, senior moment, her name just escaped my memory ... Judy Collins!

Some of you may be wondering whether I am blind, deaf and dumb. The answer is: almost, a little bit, and undoubtedly. :oops:

for Jewel :hug:

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Post by truehobbit »

"And suppose," Velvel grumbled, "God hadn't told the old fanatic to drop the knife?"

"Why, the Bible would end at Genesis twenty-two," Aaron retorted, smiling. "There'd have been no Jewish people, no Christianity, no modern world. Holocausts of children might still be going on. But you see, He did tell him to drop it. Western civilization turns on that stark fact. God wants our love, not the ashes of our children."
This is a very nice interpretation, but I don't understand what became of the part of Abraham's obedience in this explanation?

This aspect of stark obedience seems to be the subject of the Leonard Cohen song - but I'm not sure I get that song right! (What is it with pop and rock music texts that I can never make sense of them? :roll: )

I think I understand the first stanza as condemning Abraham for his obedience - would you say this is right?
From the third stanza onwards I don't have a clue what he is talking about, but I'd still say the tone is negative - I have a vague feeling that it's the idea of the songtext to convey Isaac's bitterness on having been made the victim and that because of that he can't feel for other victims anymore - would you say that's anywhere close?

If so, it's rather a different take on the story than what Voronwë quoted.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Hobby, Cohen's song is metaphorically about the Vietnam War.
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Post by truehobbit »

Oh, I see - or maybe not - yes, that way the modern slaughter he is talking about makes sense - but what does he say about Abraham, then?
It still seems to me he's saying that Abraham's willingness to do the sacrifice was wrong, too. Or isn't he saying that?
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Post by Jnyusa »

I think he's saying that Abraham was a righteous man and even the deed he was called to do was terrible, seen through the eyes of Isaac. Those 'who build these altars now to sacrifice these children' are not righteous and have no excuse for what they are doing.

This is probably my most favorite line from all the song lyrics that I know:

Your schemes are not a vision
And you never have been tempted
By the Devil or the Lord.

(I actually like the Collins lyric better here.)

In the end he seems to be saying that the perpetrators of the war deserve death ... "I will kill you if I can" ... or that the death they have brought will perpetuate - I believe the peacock is supposed to be a harbinger of death.

I think the "I will kill you if I can" is not in the Collins version ... have forgotten and must look again ... WITH glasses on!!!

Jn

right - the Cohen lyrics are a lot starker than what Collins released on her album. I think what she sang was, "I will kill you if I must, I will love you if I can."
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Post by Cerin »

Oh, what powerful lyrics. They leave me chilled to the core.

How I'd love to hear this sung. I have a CD of folk duets, and it has Judy Collins singing a whaling song with someone recorded live at a folk festival, it's just about the most thrilling thing I ever heard. Her voice can be so piercing, just like these lyrics.

"And suppose," Velvel grumbled, "God hadn't told the old fanatic to drop the knife?"

"Why, the Bible would end at Genesis twenty-two," Aaron retorted, smiling. "There'd have been no Jewish people, no Christianity, no modern world. Holocausts of children might still be going on. But you see, He did tell him to drop it. Western civilization turns on that stark fact. God wants our love, not the ashes of our children."
hobby wrote:This is a very nice interpretation, but I don't understand what became of the part of Abraham's obedience in this explanation?
Hobby, I wasn't quite sure what you meant here. I wonder if you could explain a little more?
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Post by vison »

I have no trouble with Abraham's obedience.

With all due respect to those who think otherwise, the trouble I have is with the god who would demand it.
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Post by JewelSong »

Leonard Cohen often uses religious and/or Biblical imagery in his songs, sort of as a reference point, or as way of painting a picture.

I am thinking of his many songs that reference a "religious" character:
Story of Isaac (as above)
Hallelujah (yes, the same one they used in "Shrek")
Song of Bernadette
Sisters of Mercy
Suzanne
Joan of Arc
Passing Through

I'm sure there are others. Cohen paints pictures and feelings with words - his songs are metaphorical and allegorical and not meant to be taken literally.

Maybe I will start a thread on his songs in the Cottage! I love his poetry.
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Post by truehobbit »

Cohen paints pictures and feelings with words - his songs are metaphorical and allegorical and not meant to be taken literally.
Yes, I think the problem I have with rock music texts is that it is full of metaphors that don't make any sense to me. I never stop wondering if other people "understand" them somehow instinctively or subconsciously, the way people say they understand a modern work of art - that it "talks to them", where for me it's just a lot of colour splashes.
Hallelujah (yes, the same one they used in "Shrek")
Love that one, but also think that most of it makes no sense. :)

Jny wrote:I think he's saying that Abraham was a righteous man and even the deed he was called to do was terrible, seen through the eyes of Isaac. Those 'who build these altars now to sacrifice these children' are not righteous and have no excuse for what they are doing.

This is probably my most favorite line from all the song lyrics that I know:

Your schemes are not a vision
And you never have been tempted
By the Devil or the Lord.
I don't understand where you see that righteousness in the text, Jny.
The very lyrics you quote - And you never have been tempted/By the Devil or the Lord. - I read as saying that Isaac isn't sure whether it was the Devil or God who asked Abraham to make the sacrifice.
And he stood so tall above me,
his blue eyes they were shining
and his voice was very cold.
He said, "I've had a vision
and you know I'm strong and holy,
I must do what I've been told."
So he started up the mountain,
I was running, he was walking,
and his axe was made of gold.
I think the stress on cold-heartedness in these lines says that Isaac condemns the obedience of Abraham.
Isn't it telling that Abraham has blue eyes? A bit unusual, but blue eyes are sooner seen as cold than brown. I thought he gave him blue eyes to stress how unfeeling he is.
The cynicism of the line "you know I'm strong and holy" just blows me!
This, to my mind, is utter condemnation of Abraham.
Also, in the way up the mountain, Abraham walks at his own pace, regardless of the running this demands of the child.
In the end he seems to be saying that the perpetrators of the war deserve death ... "I will kill you if I can" ...
The first time round he says:
When it all comes down to dust
I will kill you if I must,
I will help you if I can.


But then:
When it all comes down to dust
I will help you if I must,
I will kill you if I can.


I think this means that Isaac (because he's still the "I" of the poem) just doesn't care - helping or killing, it's all one to him.
That's why I said it's about the extreme bitterness the experience of being the sacrifice of his own father has caused.

With reference to modern war, I think it accuses all parents who allow their children to be killed in a war that others have told them to go to.
I think he's saying that even though he survived his father's willingness to see him killed "for a higher purpose", it has left him a person who can't feel for others anymore.
If the peacock stands for death, that would add to this: he only sees death ruling over everything, so he doesn't care.
Cerin wrote:
hobby wrote: This is a very nice interpretation, but I don't understand what became of the part of Abraham's obedience in this explanation?


Hobby, I wasn't quite sure what you meant here. I wonder if you could explain a little more?
The reading in the story said that what Abraham offered to God was love and trust - He trusted God to make him drop the knife before he hurt the boy. That's the whole point of the story." /God wants our love, not the ashes of our children." - but I don't understand where that comes from. I've never read the story as Abraham only obeying because he trusted God would not go through with the demand. On the contrary, I thought the point of the story was that Abraham obeyed although he was convinced that the sacrifice would be demanded of him! That it was only this obedience which caused God to make him stop at the last moment.
So, much as I agree with the final sentence of the story, I'm wondering how the author came to read Abraham and Isaac as a story of trust and optimism.

After having written this, I thought it might be good idea to actually read the story, rather than just going by memory ;) - I could imagine that the author took his reading (about trust) from Abraham saying to Isaac that God would provide the sacrifice. However, I'd always taken this to have been just a lie to calm the child. If the interpretation, however, is as I just said, it would be very interesting, although I couldn't yet say whether I think it's correct.

I thought it was also very interesting that the text did, as Cohen's song (which had me baffled), use the word "tempted" - surely you only "tempt" people to something bad, don't you? So, what does that mean?
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

hobby, the obediance that you are looking for is contained in this sentence:
Yes, Abraham took up the knife. Why? To show for all time that he cared no less for God than the pagans did for their bloody idols.
Of course, the passage that I quoted is just a brief snippet that is part of a dramatic narrative. The main purpose of it is to illustrate the character of Aaron Jastrow. One has to take a closer look at Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling for a better understanding.

In Fear and Trembling Kierkegaard poses the question: Is there such a thing as teleological suspension of the ethical? He then goes on to assert that the story of Abraham contains such a teleological suspension of the ethical.


He first points out that, Abraham's relation to Isaac, ethically speaking is quite simply expressed by saying that a father shall love his son more clearly than himself. Then, after describing the ethical conduct of several tragic hero, he differenciates Abraham thusly:
The difference between the tragic hero and Abraham is clearly evident. The tragic hero still remains within the ethical. He lets one expression of the ethical find its telos in a higher expression of the ethical; the ethical relation between father and son, or daughter and father, he reduces to a sentiment which has its dialectic in its relation to the idea of morality. Here there can be no question of a teleological suspension of the ethical itself.

With Abraham the situation was different. By his act he overstepped the ethical entirely and possessed a higher telos outside of it, in relation to which he suspended the former. For I should very much like to know how one would bring Abraham's act into relation with the universal, and whether it is possible to discover any connection whatever between what Abraham did and the universal … except the fact that he transgressed it. It was not for the sake of saving a people, not to maintain the idea of the state, that Abraham did this, and not in order to reconcile angry deities. If there could be a question of the deity being angry, he was angry only with Abraham, and Abraham's whole action stands in no relation to the universal, is a purely private undertaking. Therefore, whereas the tragic hero is great by reason of his moral virtue, Abraham is great by reason of a purely personal virtue. In Abraham's life there is no higher expression for the ethical than this, that the father shall love his son. Of the ethical in the sense of morality there can be no question in this instance. In so far as the universal was present, it was indeed cryptically present in Isaac, hidden as it were in Isaac's loins, and must therefore cry out with Isaac's mouth, "Do it not! Thou art bringing everything to naught."

Why then did Abraham do it? For God's sake, and (in complete identity with this) for his own sake. He did it for God's sake because God required this proof of his faith; for his own sake he did it in order that he might furnish the proof. The unity of these two points of view is perfectly expressed by the word which has always been used to characterize this situation: it is a trial, a temptation (Fristelse).47 A temptation–but what does that mean? What ordinarily tempts a man is that which would keep him from doing his duty, but in this case the temptation is itself the ethical … which would keep him from doing God's will. But what then is duty? Duty is precisely the expression for God's will.

Here is evident the necessity of a new category if one would understand Abraham. Such a relationship to the deity paganism did not know. The tragic hero does not enter into any private relationship with the deity, but for him the ethical is the divine, hence the paradox implied in his situation can be mediated in the universal.

Abraham cannot be mediated, and the same thing can be expressed also by saying that he cannot talk. So soon as I talk I express the universal, and if I do not do so, no one can understand me. Therefore if Abraham would express himself in terms of the universal, he must say that his situation is a temptation (Anfechtung), for he has no higher expression for that universal which stands above the universal which he transgresses.

Therefore, though Abraham arouses my admiration, he at the same time appalls me. He who denies himself and sacrifices himself for duty gives up the finite in order to grasp the infinite, and that man is secure enough. The tragic hero gives up the certain for the still more certain, and the eye of the beholder rests upon him confidently. But he who gives up the universal in order to grasp something still higher which is not the universal–what is he doing? Is it possible that this can be anything else but a temptation (Anfechtung)? And if it be possible … but the individual was mistaken–what can save him? He suffers all the pain of the tragic hero, he brings to naught his joy in the world, he renounces everything … and perhaps at the same instant debars himself from the sublime joy which to him was so precious that he would purchase it at any price. Him the beholder cannot understand nor let his eye rest confidently upon him. ...
[long diversion omitted]

The story of Abraham contains therefore a teleological suspension of the ethical. As the individual he became higher than the universal. This is the paradox which does not permit of mediation. It is just as inexplicable how he got into it as it is inexplicable how he remained in it. If such is not the position of Abraham, then he is not even a tragic hero but a murderer. To want to continue to call him the father of faith, to talk of this to people who do not concem themselves with anything but words, is thoughtless. A man can become a tragic hero by his own powers–but not a knight of faith. When a man enters upon the way, in a certain sense the hard way of the tragic hero, many will be able to give him counsel; to him who follows the narrow way of faith no one can give counsel, him no one can understand. Faith is a miracle, and yet no man is excluded from it; for that in which all human life is unified is passion, and faith is a passion.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Hobby, that's a very interesting interpretation of the song!

I'm pretty sure, though, that's not what Cohen intended. The song is not addressed to Abraham. the righteousness of Abraham is presumed by cultural context. He is someone we revere, and we know the reason for his actions. Isaac is the 'narrator.' In the first two verses he is telling the story of his trip up the mountain. In the second two verses heis talking to the the leaders of our country, stating his conclusions about them. Our leaders are the ones who are 'building these altars.'

This is the way I've always understood it because of context. It is one of many protest songs from that era.

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Post by vison »

"He suffers all the pain of the tragic hero, he brings to naught his joy in the world, he renounces everything … and perhaps at the same instant debars himself from the sublime joy which to him was so precious that he would purchase it at any price. Him the beholder cannot understand nor let his eye rest confidently upon him. . ."

Yes.

Yet.

I can understand Abraham, almost.

But there is that in me that cannot understand Abraham's god. That's where I feel the ground sliding away under my feet.

I know that we aren't supposed to understand god. But that's so unsatisfactory!

It's the leap in the dark, for me.
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