Christians: How Involved Are You in Church?

[Lalaith]

Yeah, why can't it ever be that response? "God says you need to spend a week on the beach." Something like that would be great! Nooooo, it's always, "Keep working. Keep struggling along. It'll all be worth it in the end."

(And you know it will be, but it's just so hard sometimes.)

I was going to talk about the multimedia thing a bit. I find it very interesting that so many of you would be opposed to that kind of thing. It's what's considered modern here; if your church still uses hymnals, then your church is considered behind the times, at least in evangelical church circles.

Personally, I could go either way. At first, I was opposed to the big screens, because, as a musician, I like to read music when I'm singing. I can see the harmony that way and see what's coming up, etc. But then I could see the advantages of not having people's faces buried in their hymnals. Forcing people to look up, helps with the energy level.

Granted, you want a worship leader to take the time to make sure the congregation learns a new song.

I don't think either is better than the other, just different. One thing I always want to keep in mind is that question: How would I feel if I were a visitor here? I would want to know what's coming up, if there are to be any responses made or anything like that. I appreciate it in a liturgical church when it's very clearly laid out for me that I'm supposed to say, "Thanks be to God" after the reading of the Scripture and things like that. I wouldn't know otherwise.

So if you use screens, then you need to have a good person up there, keeping pace well, timing it just right so that you move onto the next set of lyrics before they arrive musically but not so soon that you forget what you're supposed to be singing right now. It takes some skill.

If we read Scripture aloud (about the only thing we do like that), then it needs to be up on the screens, and the same thing applies as for lyrics.

The sermon points are on the screen. Informational slides are on the screen. Announcements are on the screen. Videos are on the screen.

It's what I'm seeing in evangelical churches now. :shrug: (You all really do need to import that smilie. )

But it's interesting to read the thoughts here on it.


Lali

[WampusCat]

I certainly feel that it is possible to lose one's faith while neatly tucked within organized religion. Perhaps that makes it even more possible, since I suspect that faith is lost more by complacency than by wrestling honestly with it. Lots of people in churches are just going with the flow because they were dunked in the river as children. So to speak.

But for those who do want to go deeper, and who relish wrestling with the questions of meaning and belief, there is really no good substitute for being in a community of faith.

For one thing, there will always be opinions or teaching or people that challenge your private assumptions. (I see this as a good thing.)

For another, there will be opinions or teaching or people that click with you unexpectedly -- that lead you to new insights and aha! moments. Or challenge you to act in ways that you might not otherwise.

Together, we are more than we are alone. More annoying, yes. More confused, sometimes. More whole, absolutely.

I knew what it was like to be on the giving side, but I was not on the receiving side until Gary's illness and death. It was a little embarrassing to have people who knew me bring food and clean my house, even the most horrible, neglected parts of it. They took away my laundry and washed it. They mowed my lawn. They helped me clear out Gary's clothes.

But what meant the absolute most to me was this: There were times when I felt so empty and grief-stricken that I couldn't even pray. I couldn't even turn toward God because it meant staring directly into that void. But I knew that the community was praying when I couldn't. I could feel the foundation of that prayer under me, supporting me, keeping the connection alive until I had the strength to reach out myself.

With all its many frustrations, church has been a lifeline to me.


edit: cross-posted with numerous posts ... hey, I'm slow...

[JewelSong]

I knew what it was like to be on the giving side, but I was not on the receiving side until Gary's illness and death. It was a little embarrassing to have people who knew me bring food and clean my house, even the most horrible, neglected parts of it. They took away my laundry and washed it. They mowed my lawn. They helped me clear out Gary's clothes.

But what meant the absolute most to me was this: There were times when I felt so empty and grief-stricken that I couldn't even pray. I couldn't even turn toward God because it meant staring directly into that void. But I knew that the community was praying when I couldn't. I could feel the foundation of that prayer under me, supporting me, keeping the connection alive until I had the strength to reach out myself.

That's absolutely perfect...and expresses it beautifully, Wampus.

I agree with Wampus (and others) about the feeling of community found in a church. Remember that the church is the people. not the building...which is why Quakers call it "Meeting for Worship" and not "Church!"

We tend to crave community. We are social animals and need the support and fellowship of others. It's why sharing the bread and wine is called Communion, isn't it? Because it is a symbol of our fellowship with God and with each other.

However, I do think that it is possible (more than possible) for a church community to loose its way; to become more invested in the trappings of worship than in the actual worship itself.

Lali, I am one who feels a bit uncomfortable with "multi-media" worship. I feel that there is sometimes the temptation to make the media the thing...not simply a tool to enable worship. And I find that it gets in the way of my own communion with God.

(I am also one of those folks who would like the dang music to follow. And I have always wondered why they can't project the NOTES on the screen as well as the words! *grumble.*)

[Lalaith]

Lali, I am one who feels a bit uncomfortable with "multi-media" worship. I feel that there is sometimes the temptation to make the media the thing...not simply a tool to enable worship. And I find that it gets in the way of my own communion with God.

(I am also one of those folks who would like the dang music to follow. And I have always wondered why they can't project the NOTES on the screen as well as the words! *grumble.*)

Money. I think it costs more to be able to project the actual music somewhere than it does to project the lyrics. (I'm a little fuzzy on this, but I'm pretty sure I'm right, as I've had this discussion a very long time ago with our music minister.) Unless you have a church that doesn't care about the ethics of this stuff, you have to have a license to project the lyrics. (The CCLI license, and it costs a certain amount of money per year.) I think it costs more to use the actual music.

(Of course, some hymns are public domain now, but many are not. And we use non-hymns, modern hymns, etc. all of which are copyrighted.) We also had to pay a certain amount to be able to legally show clips of movies and that sort of thing. We haven't used that in a service yet, but we have played movies on the big screens for other events.

There is a bit of a logistics issue, too. How do you get the music notes large enough for anyone to actually see on the screen? That would require scanning in the music and then manipulating the image. It would be very time-consuming, more so than it already is to get the lyrics up there in the correct order.

(We use a program that keeps a database of songs, but it still takes work to set up the songs for Sunday morning.)

I agree that it would be easy to let the media become the focus. Hopefully, it's not to most people, and it's merely a modern way of conveying the information in a service--lyrics, sermon, announcements, etc.

As it is, since I'm in the band and the choir, I have the music! Well, if I sang in the choir for congregational songs, I wouldn't. Our music minister phased out the choir using music for congregational songs a while ago. It was sort of painful for some; some didn't care, not being able to read music anyway. The upside was that it forced the choir members to look up at the rear projector and be more animated in their singing, rather than constantly looking down into their books.

Ideally, we'd be able to memorize our music for special songs, but we're just not that good (usually).

I'm spoiled anyway, as I play in the band, and always have music.


****************

Wampus, that brought tears to my eyes.



Lali

[Primula Baggins]

My church pays for the right to reproduce music and words of hymns at will in our bulletins. We do this for several different hymnals. It totals a few hundred dollars a year and typically includes a CD with all the hymns.

I'm sure we could also project them onto a screen if we chose to. But I'm guessing it would be hard to project words and music onto even a large screen in a way that people could read both the words and the notes. And I'm sure some people are confused and put off by musical notes because they can't read them.

Lali, an issue in a lot of traditional churches is that they were not designed with multimedia screens in mind, so even if that's what the congregation decides to do, it's hard to implement: wall space at the front of the church is covered with art or windows, and the church is designed to let in a lot of morning light with no way to control it.

My father's last church, the one he retired from, installed one after he retired—he would have fought it. They did this despite the fact that the church is high, open, and cross-shaped with pews in all three arms. When the screen is lowered for use, it hangs in front of the cross suspended above the altar (!), and half the congregation can't see it anyway. The last I heard, it was no longer being used.

[yovargas]

Now, as to how to explain what that means, that might be trickier. I guess it means that when I pray, I don't sense any clarity or peace with leaving. Neither does Freddy. I guess it means that we keep thinking, "If this happens, then we'll need to leave," and those things don't happen, even though it seems like they will.

Hmm, interesting. I think I can maybe understand what that means. Almost. But I'm not sure I grasp how the experience differs - that of you not being at peace with a decision vs the sense that god doesn't want a decision for you. You know what I mean? How does the experience of receiving god's will differ from acknowledging your own will? Is that something that words could be put to? Or is that perhaps a part of the struggle of faith? To tease apart what is your will vs what is god's will?


(I thought it might be helpful to say... on the "mostly-atheist" thing... it's not something I talk about for a few reasons, largely because I haven't found any words that satisfactorily express my viewpoint, and also perhaps because it doesn't play any active role in my life like the views of the faithful here... but I did want to say that whatever my, um, beliefs (none of these seem like the right words!...see, I find it too hard to articulate any of this) are, I do not deny or doubt your experience. But I don't understand it either. But I would like to! If that's possible. )


ps - for teh Kitty

[vison]

Chiming in.

But it's hard to completely break away from them; even people in the worst of dysfunctional families struggle with the ties and bonds they feel.

Thank you!!! Reading that solved a little problem for me that has nothing to do with churches or communities, but with a story I'm writing that had me stumped. I KNOW what you're saying, Lalaith, and yet I couldn't seem to put my finger on it, or if I could, I couldn't seem to bring it out in the way I wanted. So thanx again, and if I ever get this story done the way I want it, I'll dedicate it to you!!!

On topic: it is the sense of community that I envy, where it exists. Just down the road from my house is the old United Church, a dear little white building. My son was married in that church. The aisles are down the sides, rather than the centre, which seems odd to me and it makes it awkward if you're in the middle of the row and you want to get out. There is now a minister every Sunday, but for many years they could only hold services there once a month as they shared a minister with 2 other churches.

Most of the members are old timers here, descendents of the pioneer families. It is very hard, so I hear, for newcomers to fit in. So newcomers often wind up at the Mennonite church or the big Pentecostal ones. I wonder how much "community" there is in a church with 3,000 in attendance every Sunday morning?

[WampusCat]

A bit off-topic, but the discussion of music copyrights makes me want to share a bit of happy news.

A week or two ago I was contacted by someone at a church in Washington state who said she was pleased to have finally tracked me down. She said their church had been using the hymn I wrote that was published and had reprinted it not only in their service bulletin but also in their own songbook. She apologized profusely for not finding me before publication and said they wanted to pay me for the rights.

I told her that I wasn't sure of the going rate, so she could pay me whatever they paid other hymn writers (yeah, I'm easy). I received a check in the mail promptly.

[Primula Baggins]

That's wonderful, Wampus! Though I'm sure the "going rate" for hymn writers is nowhere near the actual value of the work.

[PrinceAlarming]

How does the experience of receiving god's will differ from acknowledging your own will? Is that something that words could be put to? Or is that perhaps a part of the struggle of faith? To tease apart what is your will vs what is god's will?

It is my belief and understanding that "God", no matter who or what that is, gives us free will. I don't think we would be given the ability to make our own decisions only to follow what we perceive to be the will of a higher power... But I guess, if you decide to walk that path, it is your choice. So it ends up being free will, your own will, anyways.

God's will is for us to follow our own path.

Personally, I just do what feels right... While the community of a church feels good and secure, I feel more spiritually refreshed after a long 12 hour shift than during a call to worship.

... but I did want to say that whatever my, um, beliefs (none of these seem like the right words!...see, I find it too hard to articulate any of this) are, I do not deny or doubt your experience. But I don't understand it either. But I would like to! If that's possible. )

I completely understand this problem. There are so many different experiences people speak of, and many seem so connected to them. For a long time I was left wondering if that spirituality gene was lacking in me. I don't feel any type of magnetism to a church, I don't feel the need to pray or sing hymns, I don't feel this connection all these people seem to have. I do not desire to find a group that shares my beliefs...

Is something wrong with me? Am I immoral? Are those crazy fundamentalists right?

Not at all. I had to realize that there is no shame not feeling anything during a church service. It just doesn't connect with me. I just don't connect with it. During communion, I can't stop thinking about lunch or how horrible the wine is.

God wants me to drink good wine.

Maybe in time something will change. I might find Jesus or something, but I'm pretty secure in my belief. There is a really good quote from the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know"... I'll paraphrase what one of the scientists says about god: "I don't know who or what god is, and I've never felt the need to find out. But, I do know that God is..."

So, acknowledging the existence and presence of something greater than all of us, my only question was, "What now?" Well, I had to find myself. I don't think God wants us to try and find Him when we haven't found ourselves... God is in us, and we must find ourselves to find Him, or Her, or It. God is not in a building or a book or an idol. I am the temple, and God is within me (George Fox ideology).

So, I found God, and She is pissed. We are all spending way to much time arguing dogma, pointing fingers, and blaming belief systems that don't mesh with our own. I don't think any god would want that. God would want us to love one another, put the Bible down and help to make to world a more understanding place to live. God wants us to live well, live in peace, and love ourselves. We must find each other; not in the literal sense, of course. If what it takes for you to band together and champion for peace is to join a church and feel the spirit move within you, so be it. No method is wrong if the outcome is progressive and leads to a feeling of love for every piece of matter in the universe.

I'm sure I could write a lot more. God was always very important in my family growing up, so this is something I have thought about a lot.

The world is my church, it's people my family, and I am very involved.

PS: Congratulations, Wampus! That must feel awesome! I hope you deposited the check before you framed it.

[MithLuin]

I think that church communities make it easier to stick with it and keep going. Communities can nourish us, and yes, call us out when we try to deceive ourselves. Accountability doesn't happen in all communities, and you can get it from somewhere other than a church, but it is good when it exists.

It is hard to be a hermit. To keep on keeping on without support. You have to be very, very reliant on God and have an open relationship with Him if you are going to pull that off. You can't hide from people, or from God, or from yourself....but if you go it alone, there is no one to stop you from hiding, so you have to be strong (brave?) enough not to.

Prince Alarming - next time try an Orthodox service rather than a Catholic one - they just stand for the whole thing, though they might sit during the sermon. For them, kneeling is something you do at home . Personally, I miss the opportunity to kneel if I enter a church without kneelers. Not that I can't worship there - I can, I just use the 'tiny dancer' in my mind to make my spirit kneel when my body isn't. But it takes more concentration .


I think that projecting words on screens is fine as long as it is done well. As Lali pointed out, the timing has to be good, and you can't be scrambling for which slide to use so no one knows what verse you're on. And as Prim pointed out, the space has to physically have a place for introducing a slide. I feel uncomfortable when the music (and musicians) take centerstage in worship. To me, they should be off to the side, supporting the congregations efforts, leading the worship...but not the object of worship . I prefer hymnals or booklets, but can certainly make do with screens...if they are not done badly.

As for idols - a crucifix can be one, sure. It depends on how you use it. If you use a religious object to help you think of a spiritual reality, you are using it as an icon - it's reminding you of an invisible truth. If you worship the object itself...that's idolatry.

[Primula Baggins]

There's symbolism, too. Lutheran crosses aren't crucifixes—Christ is not portrayed on them—because we prefer to emphasize the image of triumph over death that the empty cross symbolizes.

Here's one I've told before, but I'm going to tell it again. Most Christian churches such as the Presbyterian churches are traditionally very unornamented, whereas Lutheran churches can look as glorious as cathedrals with stained glass, banners, carvings, etc. And the reason is that we number the Ten Commandments differently.

The most common way among Christian churches gives a whole commandment, #2, to "You shall not make for yourself any graven image [idol]," whereas Lutherans and Catholics roll that into the first commandment. So church traditions where there's a whole commandment devoted to not making idols tended to insist that churches could not be gloriously decorated. Meanwhile Catholics and Lutherans felt it was less of an issue and went to town.

But to come out even, we have to have two whole separate commandments for not coveting your neighbor's wife (9) and not coveting his house (10), whereas not coveting is all one commandment in every other tradition.

So, numbering Bible verses can affect entire traditions of architecture and design.

[PrinceAlarming]

But to come out even, we have to have two whole separate commandments for not coveting your neighbor's wife (9) and not coveting his house (10), whereas not coveting is all one commandment in every other tradition.

Makes you wonder, what happened for them to be so specific?

next time try an Orthodox service rather than a Catholic one - they just stand for the whole thing, though they might sit during the sermon. For them, kneeling is something you do at home

I may just do that, I'm always up for a different experience...

I must admit, however, that I reject the idea that

You have to be very, very reliant on God and have an open relationship with Him if you are going to pull that off. You can't hide from people, or from God, or from yourself....but if you go it alone, there is no one to stop you from hiding, so you have to be strong (brave?) enough not to.

I am very self-reliant. I find it easier to hide amongst people. It is easier to hide behind what everyone else thinks and says. We start to get into mob mentality here. While alone, while relying on my own views, my own discoveries, and my own organic dogmata, I have no one to hide behind. I can't say "God says this" or "we believe that". There is no "we" here, no group, there is me and my relationship with my god. Which, I might add, is very strong, and has gotten stronger ever since I started seriously questioning His existence and organized religion.

As my favorite science teacher is high school said, "If you can question something, honestly look at it from an opposing side, and still come out believing, your belief must be solid." I do not fear questioning every governing factor in life. From authority to the metaphysical omnipotence that is all around us; if I feel I need an answer, I question.

I will not, however, question your beliefs. They are your own, and not mine. If you can live and help live without raping my spirituality with your deeply ingrained and learned ideals, then I am happy. All I ask is, no matter how you walk this earth, no matter what you preach, how you pray, who or what you pray to, you live well, without regret, and with acceptance of the differences that surround you. Even if you are an avid atheist, don't push that on me, see beauty in your neighbors, love them as humans, and we can be cool...

Unless we want to debate.

That can be fun!

As far as multimedia church services go, I lean towards "less is more". Some thoughts and a quiet place is the best atmosphere for me to connect with God, when I feel like I need a more intimate connection. Although, I like the idea of music and a bouncing ball and a nice, clear plasma screen.

[MithLuin]

Out of curiosity...how is that disagreeing with what I said? I basically said that to separate yourself from organized religion (the 'group'), you have to have a very strong faith. You then said that you felt complacent in groups, but found that your faith on your own was very strong because of the questioning you put it through.

I mean, I realize that you did not find accountability to be a major attribute of groups, but the rest of the idea is the same.

For the record, I do not think the 'best' members of a religion are the ones who have the theology down pat and can get into a debate over the minor details. I enjoy talking about minutia in any subject, but generally the admired people (spiritually speaking) are the ones who live holy lives. You can be quite ignorant of religion and pull that off admirably, from what I have seen. People want spiritual directors who live it out in their own lives and have an active prayer life, not ones with college degrees.


Right, Prim - and the sybolism of the crucifix is emphasizing God's sacrificial love. The necklace I wear is an empty cross with a heart in the center, so I manage to include both I forget how the Orthodox churches break up the 10 commandments, but they had lots of problems with iconoclasm long before the Protestants did.


I'm not sure about how well you would like Orthodox liturgy, Prince Alarming - they tend to sing (chant) everything and be very traditional. But as you said, trying it out for yourself would be the only way to find out.

[PrinceAlarming]

Sorry, Mith, I took your reply the wrong way...

I thought you were insinuating that no one could have that strong of a relationship with God...

[MithLuin]

Haha, no, not at all. I'm sorry, I didn't even think of that, so I wasn't careful to make clear that's not what I meant. I only meant that hermits were on the more experienced end of the spectrum - beginners don't generally start there, or if they do, they have to do a lot of growing very fast . For me, personally, I doubt I would ever get to that point, but it's because I know I am no spiritual giant. I need the reinforcement of a community, because when things get difficult, my natural reaction is very much like Adam and Eve - I hide from God. If your reaction to difficulties is to spend time with God ironing them out...well, that is very different!

[JewelSong]

If your reaction to difficulties is to spend time with God ironing them out...well, that is very different!

Heh. My reaction is to have it out with God, basically.

When I was going through my divorce, I used to throw the couch cushions around and yell at God. "How 'bout a little help down here, okay? I mean, WTF, God! Get your ass down here and give me some frickin' assistance, already! Jesus Christ. Yes - I mean you! Get in here NOW!"

Stuff like that.

[WampusCat]

Sounds spiritually healthy to me.

[JewelSong]

Well, I never felt separated from God...I always knew God was there. But sometimes, when your prayer is "God, this SUCKS!" the answer is simply, "Yes....yes, it does."

I don't believe in a God who will "fix things" for you. I believe God is there to hold you while you go through things. And to throw cushions at if necessary.

[PrinceAlarming]

I don't believe in a God who will "fix things" for you. I believe God is there to hold you while you go through things. And to throw cushions at if necessary.

...I agree...

Isn't that why he put the cushions there is the first place?