The 2008 Presidential Campaign: What Happened and Why?

Discussions of and about the historic 2008 U.S. Presidential Election
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Post by halplm »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:hal, an equivalent question to or about Palin would have been whether she is a fascist, or a Nazi.
Of course, Palin has given no evidence of being anything remotely like a fascist or Nazi. But Obama stated quite clearly, and has stood by his claim to want to "spread the wealth around" which is clearly a marxist philosophy.

Obama has shown his naivite in foreign policy, and then rapidly corrected himself when it was obvious how wrong he was, but there's no evidence he won't go back to his absurd ideas when he has power.

He has reversed his position on every foriegn policy issue he's been presented with. What are we to believe? The idea he adopts to get elected, or the idea he had for years previous to that?

Palin was obviously trying to answer in a way to not hurt McCain, which turned out to be a bad idea. She should have answered as herself, which would have been clearer and less problematic given media spin.

Of course, Obama gets a pass on changing his mind on everything, but Palin is portrayed as knowing nothing and foolish.

Granted, Palin is just the VP candidate, but everyone expects McCain to die any day, so it's like she's the presidentical candidate. :scratch:
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Post by Primula Baggins »

halplm wrote:
Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:hal, an equivalent question to or about Palin would have been whether she is a fascist, or a Nazi.
Of course, Palin has given no evidence of being anything remotely like a fascist or Nazi. But Obama stated quite clearly, and has stood by his claim to want to "spread the wealth around" which is clearly a marxist philosophy.
Yes—Obama wants to return the upper-bracket tax rates to what they were under Comrade Reagan. :P

A progressive tax system is not Marxism, Hal. You should look it up. Or I will: here. Link
He has reversed his position on every foriegn policy issue he's been presented with. What are we to believe? The idea he adopts to get elected, or the idea he had for years previous to that?
It's a lucky thing that McCain's never changed his mind ab—oh, wait.
Granted, Palin is just the VP candidate, but everyone expects McCain to die any day, so it's like she's the presidentical candidate. :scratch:
That is precisely what scares people about her, Hal.
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Post by halplm »

Primula Baggins wrote:
halplm wrote:
Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:hal, an equivalent question to or about Palin would have been whether she is a fascist, or a Nazi.
Of course, Palin has given no evidence of being anything remotely like a fascist or Nazi. But Obama stated quite clearly, and has stood by his claim to want to "spread the wealth around" which is clearly a marxist philosophy.
Yes—Obama wants to return the upper-bracket tax rates to what they were under Comrade Reagan. :P

A progressive tax system is not Marxism, Hal. You should look it up. Or I will: here. Link
a progressive tax system may or may not be marxist, that's not the issue. The statement "spread the wealt around," however, is clearly a desire to take money from the people who earn it, and give it to those that need it, which is marx at his core.
He has reversed his position on every foriegn policy issue he's been presented with. What are we to believe? The idea he adopts to get elected, or the idea he had for years previous to that?
It's a lucky thing that McCain's never changed his mind ab—oh, wait.
Hey, you don't have to convice me about McCain. But I was talking about Obama.
Granted, Palin is just the VP candidate, but everyone expects McCain to die any day, so it's like she's the presidentical candidate. :scratch:
That is precisely what scares people about her, Hal.
So you admit McCain is more experienced, you just think he's going to die? Right, that's a good call.
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

halplm wrote:
Primula Baggins wrote:
halplm wrote: Of course, Palin has given no evidence of being anything remotely like a fascist or Nazi. But Obama stated quite clearly, and has stood by his claim to want to "spread the wealth around" which is clearly a marxist philosophy.
Yes—Obama wants to return the upper-bracket tax rates to what they were under Comrade Reagan. :P

A progressive tax system is not Marxism, Hal. You should look it up. Or I will: here. Link
a progressive tax system may or may not be marxist, that's not the issue. The statement "spread the wealt around," however, is clearly a desire to take money from the people who earn it, and give it to those that need it, which is marx at his core.
I understand that Marx at his core is a revolution to overthrow the capital-holding classes and the collective ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange. I don't believe that is what Obama is advocating.
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Post by River »

One day, I'll understand why people in this day and age are so afraid of Communism. It's pretty clear that, at a national scale, Communism doesn't work. I think we all saw the ending of that story in the 90's. Anyway, this is Marx at his core (from the Communist Manifesto): "In the place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all."

In other words, you work for the good of yourself and society, not to enrich your employer in exchange for cruddy wages. Nice idea. Just doesn't work once you scale it up past, say, a hippie commune.

And this is what Marx thought a Communist society would look like:
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of wastelands, and the improvement of soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc., etc.
No one's proposed number 1. No one's proposing number 2 either - if you think our tax burdens are bad or going to get worse, go talk to a Dane. Number 3 arguably happened at this country's inception - no American has a right to an inheritance. We inherit only because our relatives decide we are worthy (there're some ins and outs to this, but at the end of the day your parents are not obligated to leave you a bent nickel). Number 4: not on the table. Number 5 is on it's way because our capitalists asked for it (let that sink in). Number 6 hasn't been proposed by anyone and hopefully never will be. Number 7 isn't on the table, is a very bad idea in general and everyone who's been paying attention since rise and fall of Communism should know that by now. Though I see farms out in the Washington desert and have to wonder sometimes. Numbers 8 and 9 aren't on the table either. Number 10 we've sort of had for a while now (well, not the combination thing, but public education and child labor laws).
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Post by yovargas »

The question is not terribly unlike "The Nazis are known to not have favored gay marriage. You also do not favor gay marriage. Are you a Nazi?" Note that he actually gave an answer despite it's absurdity.
hal wrote:Palin was obviously trying to answer in a way to not hurt McCain, which turned out to be a bad idea.
Obvious to who? :scratch: To almost nobody who saw that video as far as I can tell.
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Post by halplm »

Marx wrote:From each according to his ability, to each according to his need
Pretty much the same idea as "Spread the Wealth around."
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Post by halplm »

yovargas wrote:The question is not terribly unlike "The Nazis are known to not have favored gay marriage. You also do not favor gay marriage. Are you a Nazi?"
Palin, Obama, and Biden agree on Gay Marriage, Yov, are they all Nazis?
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Post by River »

Somehow, I don't think yov's being serious about the question, but, while we're on the subject of b.s. gotcha questions...
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Post by yovargas »

Ugh. You are spectacularly good at missing the point.
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Post by halplm »

yovargas wrote:Ugh. You are spectacularly good at missing the point.
No, the point is, they don't differ on the issue you brought up, they do differ on "spreading the wealth around."

Thus, it is not a meaningless question. You all just want it to be meaningless because you don't want to admit your guy is a communist.
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Post by halplm »

nothing to see here...
Last edited by halplm on Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by River »

You're lucky I stay up late. :P
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Hal, do you seriously think that Obama intends to end the capitalist system?
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Post by Erunáme »

The Daily Show pulled up a clip from McCain's campaign back in 2000 where he was advocating the more weathy paying higher taxes. A person in the audience was questioning him about it and he said something to the effect of him thinking it wasn't unreasonable to a weathly person to pay more. It's incredibly ironic he and his supporters are now hammering Obama for the same thing and labelling it socialism.

I don't understand why Americans are so afraid of socialism. I'm not exactly sure what you'd call most of Europe's system, but on the whole Europe seems to "spread the wealth around" and things seem to be working quite well with the weathly still leading a very posh lifestyle.
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Post by yovargas »

If wanting our long-time progressive tax system somewhat more progressive than it has been during the recent administration makes one a communist, than yes, Obama is a communist. Somehow that's not really all that terrifying.
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Eruname wrote:I don't understand why Americans are so afraid of socialism.
As a general rule, it doesn't work. Most countries which tried it have since abandoned it, and those which keep it to any major degree usually have serious problems stemming from it. Few serious economists doubt that there is a strong link between economic liberalisation and economic growth.

That said, simple 'sharing the wealth' or progressive taxation is hardly socialism. All western countries share wealth to an extent, through things like public infrastructure and public education - it's what Government does.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

halplm wrote:
Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:hal, an equivalent question to or about Palin would have been whether she is a fascist, or a Nazi.
Of course, Palin has given no evidence of being anything remotely like a fascist or Nazi. But Obama stated quite clearly, and has stood by his claim to want to "spread the wealth around" which is clearly a marxist philosophy.
Not to anyone except you. That's what's so frustrating at trying to discuss these issues with you. You have a perspective that appears to be so off-kilter that it makes it virtually impossible to have a reasoned discussion with you, even for someone who goes out of there way to try to see both sides.
Palin, Obama, and Biden agree on Gay Marriage
hal, don't you realize that Palin doesn't even agree with McCain on same-sex marriage? The candidates have three separate and distinct positions on this issue. Obama and Biden personally oppose same-sex marriage, but want to leave the issue to the states, and oppose efforts such as California's Prop 8, which wants to overturn the state's Supreme Court decision ruling that prohibiting same-sex marriage violates the state's constitution. McCain also wants to leave the issue to the states, but strongly supports efforts like Prop. 8, while opposing a national anti-gay marriage constitutional amendment. Palin, on the other hand, not only supports efforts like Prop 8, she also supports a national anti-gay marriage constitutional amendment. For you to say that she agrees with Obama and Biden is simply ignoring the facts.

Just as is saying that Obama has "clearly" shown a tendency to a "Marxist" philosophy.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

halplm wrote:
Granted, Palin is just the VP candidate, but everyone expects McCain to die any day, so it's like she's the presidentical candidate. :scratch:
That is precisely what scares people about her, Hal.
So you admit McCain is more experienced, you just think he's going to die? Right, that's a good call.
I didn't "admit" anything about McCain. I think he's a loose cannon who has exhibited poor judgment in this campaign, as well as a fundamental lack of principle that astonished and disappointed me. He chose an unqualified person, someone who is completely unready to serve as president, to be his VP candidate, simply to energize his most conservative supporters and (he apparently hoped) to bring in all the Hillary voters because Sarah Palin also has no Y chromosome, and therefore women are going to vote for her without regard for her positions on, say, women's health issues.

About 55% of the electorate apparently has no trouble seeing past her personal charm.

It does make it worse that McCain is 72 years old and has had four bouts with one of the most aggressive human cancers, one that can return years later in metastatic form without warning.

As for the "marxist" issue, others have dealt with that.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Democritus »

Lord_Morningstar wrote:
Eruname wrote:I don't understand why Americans are so afraid of socialism.
As a general rule, it doesn't work. Most countries which tried it have since abandoned it, and those which keep it to any major degree usually have serious problems stemming from it. Few serious economists doubt that there is a strong link between economic liberalisation and economic growth.

That said, simple 'sharing the wealth' or progressive taxation is hardly socialism. All western countries share wealth to an extent, through things like public infrastructure and public education - it's what Government does.
Many Americans I have met don't understand the differences between Socialism, Marxism, and Communism, they often seem to think they are all one and the same, having been too lazy or stubborn to actually find out for themselves. Hal being the perfect example of this kind of 'thinking'.

When I gently point out the difference between various strains of socialism such as liberal socialism vs social democratic thinking, I am met with the blankest of looks, same as when I point out that prosperous socialist democracies such as Sweden and France are not the same as Communist Russia.

At which point I usually wish them well and part their anti-intellectual company.
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