Why is TTT the least liked movie?

[yovargas]

Elves at Helm's Deep.
Frodo at Osgiliath
Treebeard having a tantrum on seeing the devastation to his forest.
Aragorn's resurrection

I fully expect that nobody who hadn't read the book was bothered by any of those things.
(I have, however, heard some complain about Faramir's sudden change which is terrible IMO.)
And for the record, FOTR undoubtedly has more "people walk from point A to point B" than TTT - the number 1 complaint I've heard of people who try to watch them and dislike them.

[Túrin Turambar]

The weakness of Elves at Helm’s Deep, from a purely dramatic perspective, is that it denies the people of Rohan a complete story arc in TTT. They are perpetual victims, who need to be bailed out first by Gandalf, then by the Elves, then by the Ents. Helm’s Deep was our chance to see them fight back on their own, but the Elves take the worst of it for them. Arwen at the Ford creates the same issue with Frodo – we never get to see him redeem himself with the Ringwraiths for his failure at Weathertop.

[sauronsfinger]

Not at all. The contribution of the people of Rohan at Helms Deep was brave and heroic. It is not diminished one iota by having others give them a needed assist.

[Túrin Turambar]

Not at all. The contribution of the people of Rohan at Helms Deep was brave and heroic. It is not diminished one iota by having others give them a needed assist.

That's the point - they made a 'contribution'.

[sauronsfinger]

So for you its all or nothing is it?

The men of Rohan were the overwhelming majority of defenders at Helms Deep.

[yovargas]

I find that an odd view, LM. Taking help makes them weaker? When Haldir and Théoden embrace, I'd say they both look stronger.

[vison]

The Elves at Helm's Deep were the least annoying aspect of that battle.

I will never ever ever ever get used to the Orcs. Orcs, Orcs, Orcs, Orcs. Slavering and drooling and sneering and snarling and galumphing along side to side on their stupid crooked legs with their idiotic and useless dumb-looking swords and axes. Lumpy faces. Snaggly teeth and ugly noses. Clawed hands that couldn't have wielded a paring knife let alone a big weapon. *yawns mightily* Silly, stupid, funny haha not funny peculiar. Ridiculous creatures. Pointless. Asinine.

I didn't much like the Orcs, is what I was driving at, in case you couldn't figure it out.

[Primula Baggins]

The Uruk-hai weren't bad . . . in a completely noncanonical way. I could at least believe they could fight.

But, you know, the more plausible and therefore humanlike the orcs look, the harder it is to justify the good guys mowing 'em down. In a way, PJ had the same problem visually that Tolkien had morally.

[yovargas]

*wonders what vison's orcs would look like*

From her post, presumably, they'd have excellent posture, nice gleaming teeth, and a smooth clear complexion. Oh, and top-notch manners, too.

[River]

Yov, the resurrection thing would have annoyed me even if I hadn't read the books. In fact, I probably would have found it harder to swallow, especially with Gandalf. Aragorn simply survived a fall that should have killed him but by a stroke of luck didn't (it helped that a local horse knew rescue breathing). Gandalf got sent back from the dead. If I hadn't had the context of Tolkien's larger world to work from, if I hadn't already been lead to suspect that Gandalf was something other, neither mortal nor Elven (as Tolkien hinted at and finally revealed in LOTR and fully explained in the Sil), I probably would have just sneered and maybe even refused to have anything to do with LOTR. I mean it when I say I hate the resurrection plot device.

It's one thing if you've loaded a character "death" with a nice, healthy dose of dramatic irony. For me, that approach gives me the good kind of cringe. I refer you to Romeo and Juliet for an example. It's another when you've "killed" a character and everyone, reader included, thinks the character is gone only to have that character reappear. JK Rowling pushed it in HP7, but the reader and the character involved were together the whole time so I could handle it. As I said in a previous post, I barely forgave Tolkien.

[vison]

yovargas, I would not have had Orcs to start with. They were a mistake.

[Túrin Turambar]

I find that an odd view, LM. Taking help makes them weaker? When Haldir and Théoden embrace, I'd say they both look stronger.

It’s more the whole having another army turn up out of nowhere to bail them out thing. There’s also the fact that the fighting on Deeping Wall itself where the heroes are is carried out entirely by Elves – the only thing the Rohirrim do is defend the gate. So simply accepting help doesn’t make them weaker, but having an entirely new army appear and take the brunt of the fighting does.

In some ways Jackson wrote himself into a bit of a corner by having only 300 Rohirrim to defend HD (many of them apparently non-soldiers), and yet having Théoden ride with 6,000 to Gondor. Essentially, Éomer’s force of 100 or so increases to 3,000 by the end of the film, then their combined forces almost doubles for the final battle. It’s bizarre from a dramatic standpoint to have the good guy’s armies multiply like rabbits, and that Théoden apparently has thousands of men at his disposal that he doesn’t call for until after the battle. It was even odder to then have Aragorn and Gandalf apparently counselling Théoden to go on the attack with the few dozen actual soldiers he apparently had at his disposal at Edoras.

Tolkien writes the events from the healing of Théoden until the end of the Battle of Helm’s Deep far more economically, and without the head-scratching moments. Théoden is healed -> he decides to take all of his soldiers and fight, showing that he is healed -> he discovers Saruman’s 10,000-strong army and decides to take refuge in HD -> battle. It could have worked equally well with the Éomer-in-exile subplot, which was well done in my view anyway. So I have to wonder why PJ went for a far slower and more confusing narrative for the events.

[solicitr]

So I have to wonder why PJ went for a far slower and more confusing narrative for the events.

Because PJ had determined early on that Helm's Deep was going to be the climax of the film. He often said he wanted TT to be 'like Zulu.' In that quest, he delayed, delayed, delayed an episode which is only the middle chapter of Book III, and threw in 'complications' like the Warg attack, originally stuck in because PJ thought the movie needed a fight scene about then. And unfortunately he was too unwilling to cut footage from the grueling weeks-long night shoot in the quarry, so IMO the battle is given a hugely disproportionate amount of screen time at the expense of everything else.

Of course, in Zulu the only 'reinforcements' show up, then run away.

[Aravar]

And also the tension is built in Zulu by it being the only matter the film is dealing with, no constant cutting away to other matters.

[sauronsfinger]

This is so weird. I distintclty remember sitting in the theater the first time I saw TTT and saying to myself how amazingly perfect the Helms Deep battle was and actually could not believe the scope and power that was up there on the screen. I got a lump in my throat when the Elves marched in. It was very heroic and inspiring. Those Berserkers on the ladders as they are raised - WOW!!! The explosion of the Wall! The epic charge down the slate hill! I went back a dozen times to see it on the big screen and each and every time it was the highlight of the film for me. PJ wisely intermixed the Merry/Pippin footage in with it to avoid any sense of battle fatigue. I thruthfully would love to see even more Helms Deep footage if it ever becomes available.

Making it the climax of the film, along with the Ents destruction of Isengard, was an excellent way to make a film. Again - film - not a book.

[Padme]

I personally liked the elves at HD. To me it is like the Allied forces in WWII, united front and all that.

The one thing I did not think believable (even though it was cool to watch) was the ride down the hill of the 300 Rohirrim to defend HD. It was cool, but in reality the horses would have said no way or some such thing.

[solicitr]

To each his own. To me PJ like Zimmerman displays "a marked preference for fights." The balance is lost, that Tolkien maintained, between "the pride, pomp and circumstance of glorious war" and what was really important.

[sauronsfinger]

Padme - those were special Middle-earth horses bred for just such an occassion. They did stuff like that all the time. You should have seen some of the even riskier stuff that was left on the cutting room floor.

I think if you put the stopwatch to it you will find that a very small part of the film was devoted to battle.

[Hurin]

I'd like to expand on Lord Morningstar's comments above about PJ writing "himself into a bit of a corner" concerning the size of the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep and related issues. This bothers me more and more each time I see the films. My 10 year old daughter discovered LOTR (the books and movies) in the last year or so - with a lot of encouragement from Dad - and I have seen the movies with her 3 times in the last year, including just over a week ago. I like the movies a lot and I understand that there must be differences between the page and the screen. I don't particularly like the sidetrip to Osgiliath and the change in Faramir's character in TTT but I understand what PJ was trying to do and it doesn't bother me much anymore.

But what increasingly bugs me is the lack of logic and internal consistency in the events and dialogue of the events in Rohan in the film, much of which Lord Morningstar referred to above. The first thing which jumped out at me in my first viewing was when Legolas said that "they turn northeast" (the Uruks with Merry and Pippin). I am very geography oriented so I immediately thought "he means northwest not northeast". This is a minor error (which I am sorry was not corrected for the DVD) but it made me wonder why no one - not the actors, the production crew, or anyone else - noticed it. Then there is the strange statement by Gandalf that Helm's Deep was a trap. What??? It is a lot more defensible than Edoras.

And why oh why are there only 300 Rohirrim at Helm's Deep for the battle? As folks have noted above, PJ wanted a Zulu type situation and made the odds much worse than in the book, where Gamling said there were about 1000 footmen already at the Hornburg before Théoden arrived with his mounted force. But since the Rohirrim were also defending their women and children, including the population of Edoras, they would have wanted as many defenders as possible. Why were not the rest of the Rohirrim (excluding the bunch with Éomer) summoned during the exile to Helm's Deep? 6000 showed up at Dunharrow a few days later for the muster (even granting that 2000 were with Éomer). Why weren't these soldiers available for the battle of the Hornburg? Why in the world didn't Théoden send out riders across Rohan during the march to the Hornburg asking for help? It apparently took 4-5 days or close to it to get from Edoras to HD (though it is only 50 or so miles away according to the book map), based on Gandalf's saying to look for him "at first light of the fifth day". It makes no sense at all for the muster to quickly gather 6000 in the third film after Théoden appeared to be down to 300 men a few days earlier.

Aragorn suggests to Théoden that he call for aid a few hours before the 10,000 Uruks arrive. At this time, the suggestion is far too late. No force of any size could possibly arrive in time (OK, the Elves with Haldir did - I'll get to that in a minute). Aragorn says "Gondor will answer". BUT - Minas Tirith is about 300 miles away. (At least it is in the book - I realize that distances are not as long in the movie. In the films the Rohirrim ride from Dunharrow to Minas Tirith in 3 days instead of the 5 days it took in the book). But whatever the distance to Gondor in the world of the films, there is no way that aid can be summoned from Gondor which could arrive in time to help at Helm's Deep. The Uruk army is only a few miles/hours away at the time Aragorn makes this ridiculous suggestion. Sure, PJ put this in to try to surprise the audience when help shows up in the form of Haldir, and later, Éomer. He also wanted to add suspense concerning Théoden's decision in the 3rd film whether or not to answer the summons of the beacons and to carry forward movie Théoden's character arc. But it is a crazy and illogical suggestion. Also, even if one did ask Gondor for aid, how could Gondor have sent a sizeable force to Rohan when Mordor is only a few miles from Minas Tirith and obviously a huge threat to attack at any time. [I also think it is silly for Gandalf to ask Saruman where Sauron is going to strike next during the parley at Orthanc early in the next film. Of course Gondor/MT is the obvious next target.]

Having Elves at Helm's Deep is OK, although I have to suspend my disbelief on where they came from. And why hadn't Aragorn spotted Haldir and his bunch somewhere between the point he saw the Uruk army and his arrival at the Hornburg? It all happened the same day. I just figure the Elves either helicoptered or teleported in. And did every single Elf die at Helm's Deep, as unlikely as that would seem?. We never hear mention of them again. I guess if any survived, they beamed back to Lothlórien, or wherever they came from.

Also, how does Gandalf know it will take him exactly until dawn of the fifth day to locate Éomer and his men and get them to Helm's Deep. Even if Gandalf is a Maia, he doesn't (or shouldnt') know where Éomer is or will be when he locates him. Théoden said earlier that Éomer is "300 leagues away by now" which, even if an exaggeration, is crazy. 300 leagues is 900 miles and, if accurate, would be far north of the Shire. There is no way Éomer could have ridden that far in the couple days since he was last seen. But wherever Éomer is, close or far, Gandalf's prediction is a bit too precise.

Lord Morningstar covered many of these points in a more succinct fashion and perhaps I have gone on for too long. Some of my complaints may seem picky, but when you put them all together, the whole Helm's Deep scenario as presented in the movies is completely illogical to me. As I watch the movie, I keep thinking to myself "No, no, that is all wrong (or plain stupid)". I just cannot get around it. Tolkien's distances and opposing forces made sense. PJ's did not, in the context of the Middle-earth of the films. By changing things to add more drama or further Théoden's or Aragorn's character arcs, PJ put in elements which make no sense and cannot be reasonably explained or rationalized, at least by me. And I really would like to accept or rationalize these errors "but I cannot see it", as Boromir said in Lothlórien in the FOTR film. So that is why TTT, is for me, the least liked of the three movies.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Great post, Húrin!