Boyens: Hobbit films not "episodic"

[Aravar]

No, incorporating bits of Unfinished Tales into The Hobbit would be illegal. The filmmakers do not have the rights to any material in Unfinished Tales and it would be a copyright violation to incorporate any significant material from The Quest of Erebor or any other part of UT in the films.

Surely, in the light of the ongoing litigation, the parties will wish to clarify any issues as to rights pertaining to the other material. Limited rights to the UT material could be used as a chip in any negotiations.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I seriously doubt that, actually. I can't imagine that Christopher Tolkien would authorize granting the rights to anything that has not already been granted.

I don't know if you saw in the other thread, Aravar, but a tentative settlement of the case has been reached. Of course, we don't know the terms of that settlement, and in all likelihood, we never will.

[Aravar]

I have seen the news in the other thread. It seems unlikely that the settlement would simply be along the lines of the 'Defendants will pay the Plaintiffs $x,000,000 in full and final settlement etc.'

While I agree that Christopher Tolkien would not sell the rights to the Silmarillion, any of the material in HOME, the Children of Húrin, and indeed most of the material in Unfinished Tales, what I am talking aobut is the small area of Unfinished Tales which impinges upon the Hobbit.

The rights in respect of LOTR apparently extend to the Appendices. THe material in Unfinished Tales pertaining to the Third Age expands on material in the text and entries in the various chronologies: Eorl coming from the North for example.

It appears that the film of The Hobbit will be expanded to cover matters such as the White Council, and the assualt on Dol Guldur. I would also have thought there may be a desire to include something aobut how Gandalf became involved with Thorin.

All of these matters are dealt with in Unfinished Tales. At the very least I woudl have thought that if the Estate does not want to release any rigths they would wish to make it clear exactly what, if used would be considered an infinrgement and would lead to legal action on the part of the Estate. In the same way the filmmakers would perhaps want it more clearly defined than "Don't use any material contained in Unfinished Tales" in order to ensure that the release of the films would not be restrained by an injunction on the basis of a threatened copyright infringement.

In that context a small release of certain rights, in order to prevent further litigation does not seem to me to be beyond the bounds of possibility.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Well, I still think it is highly unlikely. Moreover, I think if that were part of the settlement, that part of the settlement would need to be publicly revealed. However, the terms of the settlement are all being kept strictly confidential.

[solicitr]

The Estate isn't going to license one jot nor tittle beyond what the old man sold in 1969.

The "Rules" on using UT material etc where it overlaps with H/LR were worked out between Zaentz and the Estate (or their lawyers) years ago, and transmitted by Zaentz to game-makers (print and video).

Basically,

1) Everything in the H/LR main narrative is fine

2) Everything in the Simarillion and UT is Off Limits

3) Everything in the LR Appendices is fine, unless it summarizes or relates material in Sil or UT, in which case it is Off Limits

[Voronwë the Faithful]

soli, you've said that before, and I just don't believe it. Everything in the appendices is fair game, unless it is expanded upon in a way that parallels the Silmarillion or UT stories but is not contained in the appendices itself. If what you say were true, there is no way that the filmmakers would be able to do anything with the White Council or Dol Guldur.

What you have been told is inaccurate.

[solicitr]

Whoops: Rule Three should have read "unless it summarizes or relates First or Second Age material in Sil or UT" In other words, the history of Rohan or Gondor or the Istari wasn't going to be considered a problem; but hands off Númenor or Beren and Lúthien.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That I can accept. Although without seeing the actual agreement, if there is one, it's all speculation.

[Dave_LF]

I can't remember what material relating to the Hobbit is in UT and what's in the LotR appendices; but let's say for the sake of the argument that the blurb about Galadriel assisting in Dol Guldur's overthrow was in UT. Would placing her anywhere near the battle scene constitute infringement, or is that sort of thing too general to copyright? Seems like it would be a nightmare trying to write an adaptation with all those complex legal questions hanging over you all the time.

[solicitr]

There's certainly a de minimis rule. Technically the description and depiction of the Ring of Barahir in the LR movies was out of bounds, but nobody was silly enough to raise a stink about it. As to Galadriel: well, it's clear from the Appendices that she was a member of the Council, and that it was the Council that drove the Necromancer out. That's enough to go with.


Now, Gandalf's stunt with the smoke-rings from UT- that would I expect go too far.

[eborr]

Apropos the comment about "making all the right noises"

One difference we could consider is the body of work done by each of the directors, if we look at what PJ did up to LOTR, and compare it with GDT films, then I think one could reasonably draw the conclusion that one of the directors can do subtlety