Book II The Ring Goes South
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16581203/Red%20Book%20II.avi
Fan Edits Discussion - Book II The Ring Goes South
Fan Edits Discussion - Book II The Ring Goes South
Last edited by Alatar on Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End
A couple of thoughts on Book II
The movie starts with Frodo awaking and Gandalfs flashback to all the Saruman scenes. Since you now see them altogether instead of interspersed through the movie this goes on a bit long I felt. I personally was hoping he would have cut the Wizard-Fu fight but thats still in. He did cut the birthing of the Uruk-hai and Lurtz out of slime though, so thats a plus. Again, to be true to the book, he probably should have left out the Moth, but there was really no available material to explain Gwaihir otherwise. I missed Gandalf's reading the Ring Verse in Black Speech. That really should have been in, and I don't understand why it was cut. Also, if it were up to me I would have tried to include the line about "9 Walkers to set against the 9 riders" that was in the "Editing Feature" on the EE. All of Aragorns self doubt is cut, to great effect. As a result, Arwens line about "Your time will come" is more of an affirmation than a reassurance. Some reshuffling of scenes here also, so Boromirs scene with Aragorn and the Shards of Narsil happens AFTER he knows who Aragorn is. Gives the whole scene a very different feel.
Caradhras is pretty much as before, except Saruman's role is removed, and there's some subtitles that I didn't remember seeing before. The whole Watcher in the Water scene is much sharper, and closer to the book. We don't see the dead bodies at the gate, and only learn of the death of the dwarves at Balin's tomb. It makes Gimli's grief much more poignant. The Troll fight is shorter and cuts the "hide and Seek" aspect. Very good. The falling staircase is gone! Yay!
A huge effort was made to make Lothlórien less threatening. It worked really, really well, right up to the Mirror of Galadriel scene, where he really had nothing to work with. Thats a minor quibble though. The whole scene works much better here.
Finally, the Amon Hen scene. This felt a little anti-climactic since all of the battle scenes were cut. Frodo leaves immediately after Boromir attacks him. We don't get Sam's interminable drowning scene though, so thats a huge plus!
Overall, I think this one is more uneven than the first, but still an improvement. Vison, you really need to watch these!
The movie starts with Frodo awaking and Gandalfs flashback to all the Saruman scenes. Since you now see them altogether instead of interspersed through the movie this goes on a bit long I felt. I personally was hoping he would have cut the Wizard-Fu fight but thats still in. He did cut the birthing of the Uruk-hai and Lurtz out of slime though, so thats a plus. Again, to be true to the book, he probably should have left out the Moth, but there was really no available material to explain Gwaihir otherwise. I missed Gandalf's reading the Ring Verse in Black Speech. That really should have been in, and I don't understand why it was cut. Also, if it were up to me I would have tried to include the line about "9 Walkers to set against the 9 riders" that was in the "Editing Feature" on the EE. All of Aragorns self doubt is cut, to great effect. As a result, Arwens line about "Your time will come" is more of an affirmation than a reassurance. Some reshuffling of scenes here also, so Boromirs scene with Aragorn and the Shards of Narsil happens AFTER he knows who Aragorn is. Gives the whole scene a very different feel.
Caradhras is pretty much as before, except Saruman's role is removed, and there's some subtitles that I didn't remember seeing before. The whole Watcher in the Water scene is much sharper, and closer to the book. We don't see the dead bodies at the gate, and only learn of the death of the dwarves at Balin's tomb. It makes Gimli's grief much more poignant. The Troll fight is shorter and cuts the "hide and Seek" aspect. Very good. The falling staircase is gone! Yay!
A huge effort was made to make Lothlórien less threatening. It worked really, really well, right up to the Mirror of Galadriel scene, where he really had nothing to work with. Thats a minor quibble though. The whole scene works much better here.
Finally, the Amon Hen scene. This felt a little anti-climactic since all of the battle scenes were cut. Frodo leaves immediately after Boromir attacks him. We don't get Sam's interminable drowning scene though, so thats a huge plus!
Overall, I think this one is more uneven than the first, but still an improvement. Vison, you really need to watch these!
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Watching this in snippets at the moment, my impression of book 2 is that this is a far superior edit, by going back to the original tales the story just rocks along, all the superflous tinsion and Indiana Jones guff is out of the way - one of the best instances of this is how much more threatening Balrog is, - by jumping straight from RUN almost to his appearance - it's just so much better.
The arrogance and folley of the writing team in thinking that their judgement was superior to the sub-creator is clearly demonstrated
The arrogance and folley of the writing team in thinking that their judgement was superior to the sub-creator is clearly demonstrated
book 2 finished last night, really good, the guy has some understanding of economy and a deft touch, prefering to focus on the narrative rather than engaging in vicarious action, take the his version of the death of Boromir, surely the purpose of that scene was the tradgedy of Boromir, not some dumb sword fight complete with gratuitous stupidity. But cutting a large part of the fight with Lurz, the original intention of the story was restored. Red Book man 10 PJ Null point.
My thoughts on Book II ...
Seeing all of the Isengard scenes in one go as a flashback really changed the feel of them. I think that cavern montage should’ve been taken out and it probably wasn’t necessary to keep the Wizard Duel either (it works in “real time” but not as a flashback). I didn’t like that cut from Gandalf flying towards the top of Orthanc to the orcs felling the tree.
I felt like I was watching the film backwards when the Aragorn and Boromirs meeting by the shards of Narsil happened after the Council of Elrond. It worked well though, apart from Boromir acknowledging Aragorn before he picked up Narsil: I don’t believe he would have done so if he knew Aragorn was there.
Why was the scene of Boromir picking up the Ring on Caradhras kept when it didn’t happen in the book?
I liked the Cave Troll fight better without the hide-and-seek game with Frodo although I personally would’ve kept Aragorn saving Boromir. However, Frodo’s “death” scene was cut too severely. Peter Jackson did linger on Frodo too long after he’d been speared by the Cave Troll but this edit goes to the opposite extreme and only shows a quick shot of Frodo before cutting to the rest of the Fellowships reactions and their fight with the Troll. We at least need to see Frodo collapsing.
It was weird seeing the theatrical version of the Fellowships meeting with Haldir again. It’s been a long time since I saw that; it was like watching a new scene even though that was the "old" scene originally.
I’m glad he cut Galadriels “... one who has seen the EYE!” line. I just wish that Gimli’s snoring and Pippin’s belch/fart had been cut too.
One little scene I would have kept in was Sam hearing the sounds of battle while searching for Frodo on Amon Hen. It would’ve at least hinted at what’s happening to the other members of the Fellowship. As it is they just seem to vanish (apart from Frodo, Sam and Boromir) with no explanation.
Seeing all of the Isengard scenes in one go as a flashback really changed the feel of them. I think that cavern montage should’ve been taken out and it probably wasn’t necessary to keep the Wizard Duel either (it works in “real time” but not as a flashback). I didn’t like that cut from Gandalf flying towards the top of Orthanc to the orcs felling the tree.
I felt like I was watching the film backwards when the Aragorn and Boromirs meeting by the shards of Narsil happened after the Council of Elrond. It worked well though, apart from Boromir acknowledging Aragorn before he picked up Narsil: I don’t believe he would have done so if he knew Aragorn was there.
Why was the scene of Boromir picking up the Ring on Caradhras kept when it didn’t happen in the book?
I liked the Cave Troll fight better without the hide-and-seek game with Frodo although I personally would’ve kept Aragorn saving Boromir. However, Frodo’s “death” scene was cut too severely. Peter Jackson did linger on Frodo too long after he’d been speared by the Cave Troll but this edit goes to the opposite extreme and only shows a quick shot of Frodo before cutting to the rest of the Fellowships reactions and their fight with the Troll. We at least need to see Frodo collapsing.
It was weird seeing the theatrical version of the Fellowships meeting with Haldir again. It’s been a long time since I saw that; it was like watching a new scene even though that was the "old" scene originally.
I’m glad he cut Galadriels “... one who has seen the EYE!” line. I just wish that Gimli’s snoring and Pippin’s belch/fart had been cut too.
One little scene I would have kept in was Sam hearing the sounds of battle while searching for Frodo on Amon Hen. It would’ve at least hinted at what’s happening to the other members of the Fellowship. As it is they just seem to vanish (apart from Frodo, Sam and Boromir) with no explanation.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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I thought that Moria was excellently done. Virtually all that was good (which was very good) was kept, and most of what was bad (which was very, very bad) was removed. Definitely the highlight for me so far.
Still, I couldn't escape the overall effect of seeing an obvious edit of someone else's work. It's the movie, not the book, and trying to make it the latter really doesn't work. One example is that they removed Elrond's skepticism about Aragorn, but kept Gandalf wink at Elrond when Aragorn offered his sword to Frodo. It made no sense. A small point, perhaps, but it jumped out at me.
More signficant is the fact that they kept some things that are badly done (in my opinion), presumably because they are at least based on what was in the book, while they cut out some great scenes presumably on the grounds that they weren't at all in the book. The best example of the former is the wizard duel. The best example of the latter is the scene between Frodo and Aragorn on Amon Hen, in which Aragorn defeats the temptation of the Ring and sends Frodo off on his own, then turns to meet the Uruks. That is absolutely one of my favorite scenes in all of the films, and losing it in the interests of "purism" is a shame, in my opinon. If I want the book, I can always read the book. That scene is wonderful in its own right, and it is a crime to remove it (speaking symbolically, of course). Its the movie, not the book!
Still, an interesting experience to watch it, and I'll definitely be interested to see how TTT is split into books 3 and 4 (and whether the wonderful scene of Arwen by Aragorn's deathbed is removed because it is taken from the appendix, not the main text).
Thanks for providing the opportunity to check it out, Al!
Still, I couldn't escape the overall effect of seeing an obvious edit of someone else's work. It's the movie, not the book, and trying to make it the latter really doesn't work. One example is that they removed Elrond's skepticism about Aragorn, but kept Gandalf wink at Elrond when Aragorn offered his sword to Frodo. It made no sense. A small point, perhaps, but it jumped out at me.
More signficant is the fact that they kept some things that are badly done (in my opinion), presumably because they are at least based on what was in the book, while they cut out some great scenes presumably on the grounds that they weren't at all in the book. The best example of the former is the wizard duel. The best example of the latter is the scene between Frodo and Aragorn on Amon Hen, in which Aragorn defeats the temptation of the Ring and sends Frodo off on his own, then turns to meet the Uruks. That is absolutely one of my favorite scenes in all of the films, and losing it in the interests of "purism" is a shame, in my opinon. If I want the book, I can always read the book. That scene is wonderful in its own right, and it is a crime to remove it (speaking symbolically, of course). Its the movie, not the book!
Still, an interesting experience to watch it, and I'll definitely be interested to see how TTT is split into books 3 and 4 (and whether the wonderful scene of Arwen by Aragorn's deathbed is removed because it is taken from the appendix, not the main text).
Thanks for providing the opportunity to check it out, Al!
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."