The Devil

[Maria]

That was shocking, Whistler? How so? I tried to keep the statement fairly mellow...

[truehobbit]

I don't really have to post, because Pearl said it all already!

Still, some minor thoughts:

But then, if you don't believe in God, the question of goodness is somewhat moot, is it not?

Um, no.
IMO, the question of "goodness" is one of ethics or morals and has nothing to do with God.

I don't think Good needs Evil to exist, unless you look at it from a practical standpoint. What I mean by that is I think Free Will is a part of Good, and Evil for all practical purposes will result from Free Will.

I like that idea (though I'm not sure my understanding of it is what you really meant).
I think the notion of Good and Evil arises from the Fall, but in a state of innocence (i.e. before the Fall and resulting recognition of Good and Evil) there must still have been something, and I'd call that condition "good", too.
Also, I think you can be good without consciously turning away from evil - i.e. a state of goodness that does not need the a differentiation from evil to exist.

I believe we can't conceive many of the mysteries in this universe, and give them names and attributes to satisfy our ignorance.
We are ill equipped to understand such things.

<snip>

So too will entities like the devil and God fit poorly.
We have instincts and can sense good and bad in relation to our well being, but to even begin to understand that which is beyond our earthly reach is futile.

Boy have I been crabby lately. So pessimistic and cynical.

I'd call that reasonable rather than crabby or cynical!
(But I'm not sure how Holby will take being called reasonable! )

[axordil]

I don't really have to post, because Pearl said it all already!

Still, some minor thoughts:

But then, if you don't believe in God, the question of goodness is somewhat moot, is it not?

Um, no.
IMO, the question of "goodness" is one of ethics or morals and has nothing to do with God.

The context was TED's comment on God's putative goodness, not goodness in general. TED got it.

[Cerin]

I like this story:

Martin Luther awoke one night to see the devil sitting at the foot of his bed.

"Oh, it's only you," he said, and turned over and went back to sleep.


I also think L. Frank Baum (presuming this movie line came from him, if not, then whoever wrote it) had a pretty good grasp of the Christian position vis a vis the devil:

"Oh, rubbish! You have no power here. Be gone, before somebody drops a house on you!"

[truehobbit]

Cerin -

Ax, as TED didn't use the word "goodness", and you didn't say you meant "God's goodness" - and given that TED's post on the whole was about being good and being evil - I think your meaning wasn't at all obvious.

Which reminds me to say something I noticed about your post TED (sorry).
If you don't believe in any god, then talking about god being good or not implies that you suppose that indeed there is only one god and that one is always supposed to be good.
If, however, you really didn't believe in any god, I think it would not be so obvious to you that there can only be one god to talk about. From that I conclude that yours is more a wish not to believe in the God you probably grew up with, than a real conviction that no such entity as a god exists. At least, I took that (not believing in any god) as your meaning - or is it that you only don't believe in the Judaeo-Christian God, but consider other deities possible?

[TheEllipticalDisillusion]

If you don't believe in any god, then talking about god being good or not implies that you suppose that indeed there is only one god and that one is always supposed to be good.

I can discuss things abstractly, hypothetically, conceptually without having to actually believe them, too.

If, however, you really didn't believe in any god, I think it would not be so obvious to you that there can only be one god to talk about. From that I conclude that yours is more a wish not to believe in the God you probably grew up with, than a real conviction that no such entity as a god exists. At least, I took that (not believing in any god) as your meaning - or is it that you only don't believe in the Judaeo-Christian God, but consider other deities possible?

I don't worship any deities, but I also don't comment on their existence. In this case, the judeo-christian god... does god exist? I don't know. Do I worship god? No. Perhaps my reaction against the divine has to do with me rebelling against my upbringing (not that I was raised in any fundie churches or anything). I don't think so, but why rule out some possibilities? The same goes for my opinion of other deities. Do they exist? I don't know. The conviction I do have is that I don't need anything supernatural in my life. I know right from wrong. I am not worried about where I end up after death (probably because I'm young-- I think I'm invincible, right?). I don't feel any divine presense. Am I trying to cover my bases in case I'm wrong? No, but I admit there are mysteries and unknowns out there in the universe that my feeble human mind will never know which makes it hard to answer them with rigid certainty.

Hm, that was a long response.