Reposted from TORC:
Its funny isn't it. We all have things that trigger us. What bothers me may not bother you, stuff I hate may be your favourite part of the movie. I never really had a problem with the Osgiliation of Faramir, but Frodo sending Sam home bugged the hell out of me. My least favourite parts of LotR tended to be character driven, but according to my own personal favourites. Creepy Galadriel, comical Sméagol, these things bugged me. But none of them were dealbreakers. None of them completely pulled me out of the story.
But I'm worried about the Dwarves. I've had loads of time to get used to them. I don't care about Bifur's Axe, or Thorin being too young, or James Nesbitt looking like James Nebitt with a hat, or Bombur looking like Obelix. It just bothers me that they don't look like Dwarves. The one thing that everyone, purists and revisionists alike, agreed on was that PJ got the Visuals right. The Shire looked like the Shire, Gandalf was Gandalf, the Dwarves were Dwarves, etc. People may have quibbled about the architectural choices, or Plate Armour vs Chainmail, but overall everyone agreed that Middle Earth and its inhabitants came to life.
But these Dwarves don't look like Dwarves. There's an occasional Klingon, or Barbarian, but with the exception of Balin, Oin and Gloin, none of them would be picked out of a lineup as "That one's the Dwarf!" In the shots with Bilbo, they look like Men, in the shots with Gandalf they looked like Hobbits with beards. The thing about John Rhys Davies was that he was over 6 foot tall and very stocky, so he was proportionally correct with the hobbits. These guys just look like Aragorn and a bunch of his ugly cousins. There is nothing Dwarvish about them (apart from the noted exceptions above).
I found myself watching the new clip of Gandalf and Dwarves in the forest from the trailer and I couldn't honestly say I would know that they're meant to be Dwarves. So here's the thing. Will I be able to ignore it once the Movies start, or will I spend the entire trilogy thinking "this is great, but they're not Dwarves". I don't honestly know.
So, what are your potential dealbreakers?
Your one main concern? The possible dealbreaker?
Your one main concern? The possible dealbreaker?
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End
Your first paragraph is right on...I don't mind Faramir (besides his men beating Gollum) or even Frodo sending Sam away, but the removal of Denethor's palantír annoys me so much.
Anyway, the whole Necromancer plotline makes me nervous and strikes me as something that could go really badly. The books are so vague about Dol Guldur that they'll have to make a lot of stuff up.
Anyway, the whole Necromancer plotline makes me nervous and strikes me as something that could go really badly. The books are so vague about Dol Guldur that they'll have to make a lot of stuff up.
As someone who loves the LOTR movies, some of the worst stuff in them is some of the Gimli-oriented humor. The character was in general pretty annoything, IMO. There's part of me that's worried that Hobbit is gonna be 13 Gimlis for hours and hours on end. 
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I felt the same way about the dwarves until I saw this picture:
http://heirsofdurin.files.wordpress.com ... 020444.jpg
Maybe it's just because we have Gandalf for a reference, but for some reason they actually look dwarvish there to me (except Kili :|). Remains to be seen what effect they'll give in the actual film when there aren't tall people around all the time.
http://heirsofdurin.files.wordpress.com ... 020444.jpg
Maybe it's just because we have Gandalf for a reference, but for some reason they actually look dwarvish there to me (except Kili :|). Remains to be seen what effect they'll give in the actual film when there aren't tall people around all the time.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Thanks for posting this hear, Al. You raise some interesting questions that are not easy to answer.
I would have said in the beginning that the biggest dealbreaker for me would have been in the "bigger picture" storylines (e.g. White Council/Dol Guldur/Necromancer/history of the Dwarves and their relations with other races, etc) detracted too much from the focus on Bilbo's story. But clearly that was the direction they were going from the point that they decided to do two films. My feeling now is that if they are going to go in that direction, at least do it right, and I am hopeful that expanding into three films will help rather than hinder that effort.
As for the specific question about whether the Dwarves are "Dwarfish enough" I am on the fence on that. I share your concern about some of them, primarily Kili. But I am completely sold on Thorin, even without a long beard, and he is the most important one. I think we will just have to see how it plays out once we actually see them in the roles. That will be the key.
I would have said in the beginning that the biggest dealbreaker for me would have been in the "bigger picture" storylines (e.g. White Council/Dol Guldur/Necromancer/history of the Dwarves and their relations with other races, etc) detracted too much from the focus on Bilbo's story. But clearly that was the direction they were going from the point that they decided to do two films. My feeling now is that if they are going to go in that direction, at least do it right, and I am hopeful that expanding into three films will help rather than hinder that effort.
As for the specific question about whether the Dwarves are "Dwarfish enough" I am on the fence on that. I share your concern about some of them, primarily Kili. But I am completely sold on Thorin, even without a long beard, and he is the most important one. I think we will just have to see how it plays out once we actually see them in the roles. That will be the key.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Yeah, you could be right about the Dwarves...I mean, only really Kili's look bugs me per se because there is no way he looks anything like I imagine a Tolkien Dwarf should, but seemingly we are getting what amounts to cartoonish caricatures with several of them at the cost of making them "recognizable" within the company.
As for the rest, the Nazgûl tombs fan-fic may well be a dealbreaker for me. The White Council/Necromancer storyline should be fine as long as they stick to canon! Though as past experience shows us, what are the odds on that?
Oh, and I hate the "Go home, Sam"/Denethor/Green scrubbling bubbles saving the day travesties too...
As for the rest, the Nazgûl tombs fan-fic may well be a dealbreaker for me. The White Council/Necromancer storyline should be fine as long as they stick to canon! Though as past experience shows us, what are the odds on that?
Oh, and I hate the "Go home, Sam"/Denethor/Green scrubbling bubbles saving the day travesties too...
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~Diana Cortes
If there's anythign like Aragorn going off a cliff (I hate resurrection as a plot device; Gandalf coming back almost had me sending the book through a window and then PJ had to go and do it to Aragorn as well 
) I'll be, to put it politely, very annoyed. Same if they have anything liek the Elves showing up at Helm's Deep. No. There were no Elves at Helm's Deep. There weren't enough Elves left in Middle Earth to spare. Legolas actually lamented that a couple times in the book. They're a withering race.
) I'll be, to put it politely, very annoyed. Same if they have anything liek the Elves showing up at Helm's Deep. No. There were no Elves at Helm's Deep. There weren't enough Elves left in Middle Earth to spare. Legolas actually lamented that a couple times in the book. They're a withering race.When you can do nothing what can you do?
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Yes, I agree. And I am hopeful that the decision to go with three films will make this less likely, because hopefully it will give the filmmakers more of an opportunity to expound upon material such as this, rather than rushing through it to get to the big battles.WampusCat wrote:The deal breaker for me would be messing up the whole business with the Arkenstone. That's all.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
If, instead of focusing on Bilbo personal journey from an adventure-averse hobbit into a hero, they make a sweeping epic involving a supervillain and the fate of the world...
Oh. They did?
Eh, it's OK. I figure at worst we'll get a Mummy II - a very silly movie but fun to watch and with hot or cute actors. Since we clearly aren't getting The Hobbit, there is little more they can do to make it worse.
Oh. They did?
Eh, it's OK. I figure at worst we'll get a Mummy II - a very silly movie but fun to watch and with hot or cute actors. Since we clearly aren't getting The Hobbit, there is little more they can do to make it worse.
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Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
Terry Pratchett, Going Postal
singing spiders, goblins or wolves would be the killer blow, Smaug with a brummie accent would also be had to live with.
Less sure about the dwaves dillema, i appreciate the problem with differentiation though, because they all look pretty much the same behind long beards and hair.
Less sure about the dwaves dillema, i appreciate the problem with differentiation though, because they all look pretty much the same behind long beards and hair.
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O.M.G!!! 
I hadn't thought of any of that! Silly old me never imagined singing spiders, goblins or wolves; or Smaug with an unacceptable accent (brummie or otherwise); or osgiliating the Arkenstone storyline; or funny business with the White Council/Dol Guldur/Necromancer/history of the Dwarves and their relations with other races...
What have you done! All that happy anticipation has gone rancid on me. 
The Dwarves do bother me - not just Kili. Most of them simply don't look dwarvish to me, and that promotional pic that was linked to up-thread has strengthened that impression for me.
Actually, the fellas with the coiffed beards are too much like CS Lewis' Dr Cornelius as drawn by Pauline Baynes.
You're right Al: these dwarves have the wrong proportions - I think PJ has decided they are to be either eye candy or the butt of jokes.
I don't know if that in itself will kill it for me - only the seeing will determine whether PJ has adequately persuaded me to suspend disbelief - but it does detract and distract.
I hadn't thought of any of that! Silly old me never imagined singing spiders, goblins or wolves; or Smaug with an unacceptable accent (brummie or otherwise); or osgiliating the Arkenstone storyline; or funny business with the White Council/Dol Guldur/Necromancer/history of the Dwarves and their relations with other races...
What have you done!
All that happy anticipation has gone rancid on me. The Dwarves do bother me - not just Kili. Most of them simply don't look dwarvish to me, and that promotional pic that was linked to up-thread has strengthened that impression for me.
Actually, the fellas with the coiffed beards are too much like CS Lewis' Dr Cornelius as drawn by Pauline Baynes.
You're right Al: these dwarves have the wrong proportions - I think PJ has decided they are to be either eye candy or the butt of jokes.
I don't know if that in itself will kill it for me - only the seeing will determine whether PJ has adequately persuaded me to suspend disbelief - but it does detract and distract.
Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.
As I said on TORC, there really are no deal-breakers for me. I'll watch avidly, and kvetch mightily afterwards. 
And I'll save my kvetching for non-canonical filler, especially if it's really silly. But I survived the many heresies of PJ's LotR, I am fairly confident I'll survive his Hobbit trilogy.
Nothing would stop me from seeing Martin's Bilbo. Nothing. Not the most PJ of PJ-isms.
Not bothered about the Dwarves. Hot Dwarves are fine with me, comic relief Dwarves fine too ... they're often like that in the book! I am grateful that the Dwarves all look different.
And I'll save my kvetching for non-canonical filler, especially if it's really silly. But I survived the many heresies of PJ's LotR, I am fairly confident I'll survive his Hobbit trilogy.
Nothing would stop me from seeing Martin's Bilbo. Nothing. Not the most PJ of PJ-isms.
Not bothered about the Dwarves. Hot Dwarves are fine with me, comic relief Dwarves fine too ... they're often like that in the book! I am grateful that the Dwarves all look different.
"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... "
Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
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Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
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I figure dwarves have the same variety of builds as humans. Only elves and uruks come from clone vats.
I can't come up with a deal breaker in advance, although shifting around some central story concepts would be hazardous. The Arkenstone is one of these, along with the general mistrust and greed that leads to the Battle of Five Armies another.
I guess most of the things I see as deal breakers fall into the class of things I can't believe PJ would get substantially wrong. He's good at making creepy things creepy, funny things funny, and awesome things awesome. His main cast is solid. The production values are not in question.
The two traits that have caused me the most problems--indulging in cheese for its own sake and throwing in plot connections that made no sense even on their own merits--have been less deal breakers for me than annoyances.
I can't come up with a deal breaker in advance, although shifting around some central story concepts would be hazardous. The Arkenstone is one of these, along with the general mistrust and greed that leads to the Battle of Five Armies another.
I guess most of the things I see as deal breakers fall into the class of things I can't believe PJ would get substantially wrong. He's good at making creepy things creepy, funny things funny, and awesome things awesome. His main cast is solid. The production values are not in question.
The two traits that have caused me the most problems--indulging in cheese for its own sake and throwing in plot connections that made no sense even on their own merits--have been less deal breakers for me than annoyances.
I'm fine with the dwarves. If they're going to be more than an indistinguishable mass of "Bilbo's dwarf buddies" (besides Thorin, Balin, maybe one or two others) they have to look very different - no one wants 13 Gimlis in personality, do we really want that in appearance?
Well okay, Kili is a bit much. But he's the only one I have a problem with.
Well okay, Kili is a bit much. But he's the only one I have a problem with.