Discussion about joke about Gen. Petraeus

[anthriel]

Okay, maybe we should have a thread about jokes.

_______________________


I'm not sure if this particular instance struck me as inappropriate because it hits close to home; maybe. I am that middle-aged woman, and I don't often wear lipstick. I don't think it follows that good "judgment" on my hubby's part would be to go find someone who is younger and does wear makeup. I don't really think I should be out shopping for a younger man, either. I think that sort of thing would be a bad decision, overall.

But I really do think it's a broader reaction than that.





Example. I was hanging out with mr. anth's family at some gathering or another, and my sister-in-law, a rich white woman who married a wealthy lawyer 25 years ago and who has not worked a day since, said "you want to hear a joke"?

Yeah, sure. I like jokes.

She said "How doe the illegal immigrants get their Christmas pictures taken? They run a red light".



I guess the yuk factor here had to do with the pictures which are automatically taken when someone runs a red light. I get it. It's kind of clever, actually, but it is seriously not funny.

I walked out of the room.





Okay, so afterwards (for months afterward, actually) I was told by several people that I needed to "get a grip", that it's all in fun. Once again the group bemoaned my "liberal" tendencies (OH yeah, the "other" label gets slapped on me quite a bit, as well.)

So my sis-in-law took me aside later and told me that I had embarrassed her by walking out, that I was "making a big deal" out of something that was supposed to be a joke, darn it. Where was my sense of humor? My self-righteous behavior had ruined everyone's fun.

I told her that I thought it wasn't funny in the least, and making fun of people too poor to buy Christmas pictures didn't seem too Christian a reaction, to me. (I get to play the Christ card with these guys, it's great.)

It was also more than slightly a racist comment. But they will never see that.



.....

(I am not equating Lord M's "joke" to this one, btw. I think most people on this board, and most of the people I would choose to hang out with, would NEVER "go there" like this "joke" did. It's just an example of how a "joke" can just seriously not be funny.)

....

So, I'm not a poor immigrant, so it's not like I can really relate personally to the "truth" that there are extremely poor people out there, trying to keep it together. I just have a lot of empathy for them.

So I got in trouble for reacting negatively to that "joke", too. I didn't yell, I didn't drag in a soapbox, I just left.



I just didn't want to be in the same room with those words hanging in the air.

[Primula Baggins]

Humor is part of human give and take. So is accepting the reaction you get.

I don't know who else was there, Anthy, but when you spoke up by walking out, you modeled something good. An atmosphere where making fun of the weak and the powerless and the different is OK is just going to persist if the privileged let it go on "for the sake of harmony."

In the 1960s during the Vietnam War and the Civil Rights battles, my dad literally taught me to speak up in circumstances like that—not just by modeling it, which was not easy for the pastor of a church in a placidly conservative white suburb, but by pointing out that change, the justice God wants, depends on what every one of us does every day out in the world.

(In case you missed it, I think my dad is an extraordinary man. )

Like you, I am talking way past the joke that triggered this discussion.

[Alatar]

You sound as if you're saying humor should be privileged above response—that it isn't OK to have and express an honest reaction to something meant as a joke; people should just nod and laugh or else shut up.

Privileged above response - that's a great way to describe why the "it's just a joke!" idea bothers me so much. As if jokes were just random strings of meaningless words that auto-trigger laughs. They're not. Some jokes that are "just" jokes can be cruel or demeaning or mean-spirited or otherwise ugly. That something is intended for a laugh doesn't magically make cruel or ugly things not cruel or ugly. Yes, sometimes I laugh at cruel or ugly things too. But I don't do it while pretending that it's something other than what it is, nor while acting surprised that, gee whiz, not everybody's always gonna find such things funny.

First off, I never said that jokes should be "privileged above response". I just said that if absolutely everything we say that might offend someone is censored there will be no humour left in the world. Its a question of common sense and judgement. I think Anthy's illegal immigrant joke is a good example. Its not funny and its racist. However, I have heard funny racist jokes. Yeah, I went there. We all have. I have also heard funny sexist jokes. That doesn't mean I approve of Racism or Sexism. The trick here is to spotting when something is just sexism or racism hiding behind humour, and when its humour that happens to have a racist or sexist angle that everybody, including the audience and the joke teller, knows is not intended as "its funny cause its true".

Give each other a little credit.

[nerdanel]

Just ducking in to say that Anthy (please stick to your of-late boldness ), yov, Teremia, and Prim really captured everything I could possibly have to say on this topic, more eloquently and succinctly than I could possibly have managed.

Just to reiterate one thing: as you guys can tell, I more or less do not self-censor at all. I hold my opinions forcefully and share them freely. If I have a quasi-on-point idea that I can express quasi-coherently, I will. I fully agree that we should not have to self-censor our views, thoughts, or jokes lest they offend someone else. Period. But those of us who take this approach can't get our feathers ruffled when others explain that they were offended, disturbed, or uncomfortable with our freely expressed, uncensored thoughts. The latter set of posts have to be equally as welcome as the original uncensored thoughts.

[Túrin Turambar]

For what its worth Lord M, I took your joke as a joke. Those who choose to get offended will, as with all types of humour. I often wonder why I come here since I'm so obviously beneath the superior standards of everyone else who posts here.

That "it's just a joke!" thing is such an enormous cop-out. Jokes are usually based on truths, or perceived truths, or they wouldn't be funny.

Agreed, and it's the underlying perceived "truth" here that's problematic: isn't it funny (and a "sound" exercise of judgment) that the middle-aged general, not himself Adonis, would run off with the somewhat younger, athletic, more conventionally attractive woman while betraying the trust of his fugly older wife of nearly four decades? Obvs totally legit! ROTFLMAO.

Except not. It just shows a complete lack of empathy and compassion for someone (who incidentally looks perfectly fine) who has been the victim of a public humiliating betrayal, and it makes me wonder: do the people who make and laugh at these jokes really believe themselves immune from being in the same position? That - if it is legitimate to cheat on a (supposedly life) partner if a younger, more attractive model comes along - that a current or future partner of theirs would never make that choice? If it happened, would the people who find this amusing seriously be okay with the rest of us snickering and saying, "Well, she totally made the obvious choice: her paramour is way hotter than the husband! Hilarious! Lolz."

My interest in further debating this topic is quite low, but while I can appreciate people feeling offended by the comment I made I find this response bizarre and out-of-proportion. Of course I don't approve of infidelity, and of course I don't consider myself immune from being in the same situation. No woman has ever chosen me over a more attractive man - that is the cold, hard reality of several hundred million years of evolution through sexual selection. As is, I believe, the temptations that people feel to cheat on their partners when a more attractive prospect comes along. Obviously how they deal with those temptations is a matter of character and moral judgement. I simply thought that it was ironic that the word judgement had those several shades of meaning.

I have no real issue at people finding humour in situations that I find personally difficult and painful. It is likely that my father will die shortly and it is by no means certain that we are going to have enough money to pay for a decent funeral. We've spent the last week or so making serious or darkly comic suggestions to each other about how to do the whole thing as cheaply as possible. Offensive? Possibly. But sitting around stony-faced is not going to make it any easier, and if people can find the irony in my situation then so much the better. You Americans can be so serious and literal-minded all the time - no wonder so many of you are members of fundamentalist churches .

But again, I have no issue with people expressing their reactions to anything that I say as strongly as they wish. I would leave the kitchen if I couldn't take the heat, or, at the very least, make nothing but bland posts that nobody could take any issue with at all.

[nerdanel]

My interest in further debating this topic is quite low, but while I can appreciate people feeling offended by the comment I made I find this response bizarre and out-of-proportion.

I didn't find your joke funny in the least, and you find my reaction to it bizarre and out of proportion. C'est la vie. But as you say, you are definitely someone who can "take the heat" and respond objectively, so I felt very comfortable giving you my honest reaction to your joke.

I have no real issue at people finding humour in situations that I find personally difficult and painful. It is likely that my father will die shortly and it is by no means certain that we are going to have enough money to pay for a decent funeral. We've spent the last week or so making serious or darkly comic suggestions to each other about how to do the whole thing as cheaply as possible. Offensive? Possibly. But sitting around stony-faced is not going to make it any easier, and if people can find the irony in my situation then so much the better.

I'm sorry for what your family and you are going through. I completely understand the resort to dark humor that outsiders might find offensive. This is an issue that arises routinely in my current field of law: we deal with dark subject matter and at times we find comic relief in jokes that would offend and horrify most people not in our world, potentially including many of the thicker-skinned denizens of HoF.

But I think this sort of dark humor is of a different vintage: it is an attempt to make light of one's own tragedies or horrors, and it is typically either shared only with other insiders or at least the joke themselves are only stated by insiders. E.g. I presume you would prefer that those not in your family do not make darkly comic, tongue-in-cheek suggestions about financially ... effective funeral suggestions. I guess I don't enjoy joking about other people's difficulties, especially along gender, racial, class, etc. lines.

You Americans can be so serious and literal-minded all the time - no wonder so many of you are members of fundamentalist churches .

Gah, I've now spent five minutes trying to think of an Australian insult to throw back at you, and so far I've come up with .... Aussies have cute accents and punch above their weight in swimming. Darn it.

....

I just Googled how to insult an Australian, and I found several responses from Australians that say, "Tell us that we're just like Americans, that'll piss us off."

So to your comment above, I say: y'all are exactly the same.

[WampusCat]

Just ducking in to say that Anthy (please stick to your of-late boldness ), yov, Teremia, and Prim really captured everything I could possibly have to say on this topic, more eloquently and succinctly than I could possibly have managed.

Just to reiterate one thing: as you guys can tell, I more or less do not self-censor at all. I hold my opinions forcefully and share them freely. If I have a quasi-on-point idea that I can express quasi-coherently, I will. I fully agree that we should not have to self-censor our views, thoughts, or jokes lest they offend someone else. Period. But those of us who take this approach can't get our feathers ruffled when others explain that they were offended, disturbed, or uncomfortable with our freely expressed, uncensored thoughts. The latter set of posts have to be equally as welcome as the original uncensored thoughts.

And nel said exactly what I would have said if I had her brains and eloquence.

I am reminded of a time when I was derisively told to "Lighten up; it's just a joke" when I pointedly walked out of a social gathering. The joke, which I will not relate, had to do with Jews and ovens. I am not Jewish, nor am I a humorless fundamentalist -- but I am human, and there was no way that was going to make me laugh.

And although the joke being discussed in this thread is nowhere near that level of horrendousness, it does carry a special sting for those of us who are no longer prime date bait. I thank Anthy for posting her feelings about it.

[Holbytla]

Rule #1 of comedy: Know your audience.
Rule #2 of comedy: Never let the facts get in the way of a good (or bad) joke.

Personally, I choose not to be offended by any jokes, however distasteful.
I just tune them and the teller out if I find them annoying enough.

NONE of this belongs in this thread. Can we stop now and carry this on somewhere else please?

[yovargas]

My interest in further debating this topic is quite low, but while I can appreciate people feeling offended by the comment I made I find this response bizarre and out-of-proportion.

For my part, I gotta say I was far more annoyed with Al's "get over it, it's just a joke, ect" comments than your original comment. Because I've seen that same argument used waaaay too many times to defend and mask actual bigotry. That "everything's a joke" attitude is toxic, IMO, and slots in quite comfortably amongst people who would enjoy the aforementioned jokes about Jews and Mexicans - both of which I've had around me and had defended as "just" jokes.

[JewelSong]

I think this discussion is interesting. I am glad it was turned into a separate thread, however.

I thought LM's quip about the two women was a lame attempt at humor. (He did provide a disclaimer, though...and he didn't actually post the two pictures side-by-side as he threatened to do.) It wasn't really funny or even really a joke. It was just a silly thing to say. It might have been funny in an all-male situation, like a locker room.

I have been known to find politically incorrect humor funny if it is
1. among close friends or family
2. clever.

My family (me and my 3 brothers and assorted significant others, close friends and our children) gets together every year for an annual "tree burn" which involves drinking copious amounts of beer and wine and then, at some point, burning last year's Christmas tree with great ceremony. We talk about everything an the conversation usually takes decidedly twisted turns. The joke about Jews and ovens could well be told at this gathering and would probably get both laughs and groans. But nobody would seriously be offended because - well, it's TREE BURN. Being inappropriate is expected. And we are all (well, almost all) liberal to a fault.

Helen Keller jokes are funny because they are so ridiculously rude. And just plain BAD. Sick humor at its best.

I think an appropriate come-back to LM's comparison to the two women's looks (the wife and the mistress, with the mistress being younger and more "conventionally pretty") might have been to compare the general with the mistress' husband and question the mistress's sanity. Or something along those lines.

[River]

I think an appropriate come-back to LM's comparison to the two women's looks (the wife and the mistress, with the mistress being younger and more "conventionally pretty") might have been to compare the general with the mistress' husband and question the mistress's sanity. Or something along those lines.

I was sort of heading in that direction with one of my posts and then got scared. But...screw it. He (Broadwell's husband) is much easier on the eye than Petraeus. But, then again, women are supposedly more attracted to power than pretty faces. So it was hottie vs. four-star general. Given the hotness of the hottie, I'm guessing it ultimately came down to who she had more fun with.

[WampusCat]

Or it came down to who fed the adrenaline-junkie part of her personality. Driven, successful people often have that need to be stimulated by risk.

[JewelSong]

Or maybe they fell in love. Even though they were both married to other people. It happens, especially when you are working closely with someone in a high-pressure situation. Doesn't make it right, but it does happen.

[Nin]

Thank you Jewel Song for that comment. It does effectivly happen to fall in love when you are married - been there, done that. This is why I am so wary of judgements on "moral behaviour". They are so arbitrary.

But regarding this joke, jokes in general and questions of sense of humour: I have great difficulties in this forum because I often find that things are taken extremely seriously. I see that the sense of humour tends to be very, very different on both sides of the ocean and often things are taken very seriously by American posters which would not have shocked or bothered me the least. As most of the posters here are Americans, it is the tone and standard of the forum, which I try to respect. But as my own level of debate is usually different and much less politically correct, I fear, I avoid starting debates here or often even posting because I know it will be badly taken.

For instance, I had hesitated to post about Pussy Riot and democracy in Russia, but then just left it, being not only unsure if the reference to the Pussy Riot prayer would offend any religious feelings or if there would be any interest for such a non-American political subject.

[Alatar]

My interest in further debating this topic is quite low, but while I can appreciate people feeling offended by the comment I made I find this response bizarre and out-of-proportion.

For my part, I gotta say I was far more annoyed with Al's "get over it, it's just a joke, ect" comments than your original comment. Because I've seen that same argument used waaaay too many times to defend and mask actual bigotry. That "everything's a joke" attitude is toxic, IMO, and slots in quite comfortably amongst people who would enjoy the aforementioned jokes about Jews and Mexicans - both of which I've had around me and had defended as "just" jokes.

Did you even READ my reply upthread?

[yovargas]

Yup, sure did. Did you read other's comments such as these:

And although the joke being discussed in this thread is nowhere near that level of horrendousness, it does carry a special sting for those of us who are no longer prime date bait.

[Erunáme]

And, nobody has asked you to self censor.

No one may specifically do that, but some of the reactions here end up doing exactly that.

After all the years we've been posting together at various boards, you'd think we would all realise that we're a bunch of decent people who do not mean to harm each other and do not have negative, hurtful intentions... yet that gets assumed a lot. Too often people say they feel like they can't post because they're worried about offending people. That's not such a good thing, I think. I know I struggle with it... having a desire to keep in touch with people but a bit too frequently feeling that I don't belong, often coming to the conclusion that I should try to stop posting... yet I sort of keep trying.

It's like we're all too used to the nastiness of the internet elsewhere that we forget that it's highly unlikely for anyone here to be purposefully condescending, hurtful, want to place labels on each other, etc, etc.

And the irony of this post is I'm worried it's going to offend another person and may end up deleting this one too.

[yovargas]

See, Eru...yeah, you're right, we're all pretty nice people. But even the nicest, lovingest people in the world sometimes do or say things that hurt other people's feelings. As I recently told someone, only way to make sure you never hurt anybody is to never do anything and that's not really worth it. Instead, nice and thoughtful people that we are, if we say something that ends up being a bit hurtful, you can clarify or apologize or empathize as needed. What one shouldn't do as a reaction is be totally dismissive and condescending towards other people's feelings.

[anthriel]

And, nobody has asked you to self censor.

No one may specifically do that, but some of the reactions here end up doing exactly that.

After all the years we've been posting together at various boards, you'd think we would all realise that we're a bunch of decent people who do not mean to harm each other and do not have negative, hurtful intentions... yet that gets assumed a lot. Too often people say they feel like they can't post because they're worried about offending people. That's not such a good thing, I think. I know I struggle with it... having a desire to keep in touch with people but a bit too frequently feeling that I don't belong, often coming to the conclusion that I should try to stop posting... yet I sort of keep trying.

It's like we're all too used to the nastiness of the internet elsewhere that we forget that it's highly unlikely for anyone here to be purposefully condescending, hurtful, want to place labels on each other, etc, etc.

And the irony of this post is I'm worried it's going to offend another person and may end up deleting this one too.

I wonder why you would worry about this post, Eru. It is full of wisdom, and I think it touches the thoughts of most of us who post here.

It is ironic that so many of us feel like we self-censor; we're all probably not censoring the same sorts of things. But maybe that's the way it works, in a community, and this is a community. Maybe we need to be somewhat thoughtful about the great range of backgrounds we all come from. Maybe we can learn from each other.

Nin, I have found that Europeans seem very serious about things that I would not consider a big deal. One of the first interactions I had with you (on TORC) is when you got very upset about me using a certain word that means something different here in the USA than it does in Europe (or at least it has different meanings here, one of which is commonly used in a funny context). You were VERY upset, and I feel like that one "mistake" on my part has forever colored our relationship, although I did try to apologize at the time.

My point is that even though the "being careful" feeling always seems like it's going one way, it really isn't. I learned from that very upsetting interaction with Nin back in the day NEVER to use that word, even in a joking manner, even amongst friends who would not think a thing of it, being the uncouth Americans that they are. It really isn't appropriate, and I have learned from that experience.

See, Eru...yeah, you're right, we're all pretty nice people. But even the nicest, lovingest people in the world sometimes do or say things that hurt other people's feelings. As I recently told someone, only way to make sure you never hurt anybody is to never do anything and that's not really worth it. Instead, nice and thoughtful people that we are, if we say something that ends up being a bit hurtful, you can clarify or apologize or empathize as needed. What one shouldn't do as a reaction is be totally dismissive and condescending towards other people's feelings.

yovargas for President!!!





Okay, that ship has sailed. Darn it. The cloning thing got stuck in the lab, as such things do. Plus, I really don't want to share him, selfish thing that I am.

Coincidentally, I recently had a very dear friend tell me that the only way to never hurt someone is to never do anything, and in his opinion, that wasn't worth it. I think that was very good advice.

Coupled with the amazing, nearly life-changing advice from Frelga many years ago to ASK if something seems upsetting, I have hope that I can participate in discussions more, and feel some confidence that if someone is upset with something I write, they will ask me about it.

Eru is right, we are all pretty nice folks here. Asking questions politely and answering questions calmly will take us a long way toward understanding each other better, and that's a good thing.

[JewelSong]

She said "How do the illegal immigrants get their Christmas pictures taken? They run a red light".

I think that the best way to deal with jokes like these, when told in a group situation, is to act like you don't get it and ask the person to explain it.

I had an acquaintance who constantly made sexually-tinged innuendos about the most innocuous things. I found that acting as if I had no idea what he meant and asking him to explain it to me took the wind out of his sails very quickly.

When an offensive joke is made in public (like at a family gathering) we are conditioned to just kind of laugh it off. But sometimes it feels really wrong to laugh, because the joke is so horribly racist or sexist or whatever. So then we want to walk out, which makes US look like the bad guy or invites comment like "You have no sense of humor" or "You really put a damper on things, didn't you" and makes the person who told the joke (perhaps innocently, perhaps not) feel angry. It doesn't really teach anyone anything or really show why you feel that joke is so inappropriate.

But...asking for the joke to be EXPLAINED. That forces the hand.

"How do the illegal immigrants get their Christmas pictures taken? They run a red light".

"I don't get it!"

"What do you mean, you don't get it?"

"I don't get the joke. Why would running a red light give you a Christmas picture?"

"Because they take your picture automatically when you run a red light."

"Oh. So, anyone could get their picture taken by running a red light? What do undocumented workers have to do with it?"

Now the joke-teller has to start to explain the racist part of the joke - which, I suppose, is that illegal aliens are seen as law-breakers and would be more likely to run a red light. Also they are poor, so they can't afford to pay a photographer, so they get a FREE picture. Isn't that funny???

Well, no it isn't. But the joke-teller is now the one who looks bad. Not you.