Tolkien and the Ring of the Nibelung

[Alatar]

In the following thread I mentioned that a new Miniseries was being made of the Ring of the Niebelung and there was some discussion about whether it was fair to compare it to Lord of the Rings.

http://www.thehalloffire.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=231

Having now seen the miniseries, I'll say that it has very little similarity to Lord of the Rings, but the parallels with Túrin were frequent and startling. I should first make it clear that I have no idea how purist an adaptation the miniseries was, so much of what I'm going to refer to could be inventions of the screenwriters. Perhaps one who is more familiar with the source could correct me where necessary.

Firstly, there is a strong thread of Fate and predestination in both tales. Siegfried and Brunhilde are destined to meet and fall in love. Túrin is bound to his fate.

Siegfried kills Fafnir by getting beneath him and thrusting upwards into his belly, as does Túrin with Glaurung. Glaurung casts a spell on Túrin with his last glance, while Siegfried is rendered all but invulnerable by bathing in Fafnirs blood.

Despite Siegfrieds love for Brunhilde he marries another due to magic which steals his memory of love. Túrin falls in love with his sister who is suffering loss of memory. Also, Finduilas is carried out before Túrin while he is under the Dragon's spell.

Both Túrin and Siegfried carry a sword that was made from metal of a shooting star that is "magic" or has special properties.

In both stories there is an evil Dwarf, Alberich and Mîm. Mîm is so unusual a character in the tale of Túrin that I have to wonder at him.

When Siegried lays claim to the horde of Fafnir it brings his destruction. Likewise with Túrin and the horde of Glaurung.

Both Túrin and Siegfried have a "special" helm. Túrin has the Dragon Helm of Dor-lómin which allows him to face Glaurung. Siegfried has the tarnhelm, which allows him to beat Brunhilde in single combat while pretending to be someone else.

Finally, both Túrin and Brunhilde commit suicide when they realise how their lives have been manipulated. Túrin dies to lie with Nienna/Nienor, while Brunhilde kills herself and lies with Siegfried on his pyre.

There may have been more, but these alone seemed to be fairly serious points of comparison.

BTW, it's a fun miniseries. Acting isn't great, but the scenery and action are good, as are the effects. It's called the Dragon King.

[Alatar]

Anyone?

[superwizard]

I am sorry but I had no idea what the Ring of the Niebelung was before you made this post so I don't really know much about this matter...
Sorry

[Jude]

I would be very interested in seeing this, and seeing how it compares with Wagner's treatment.

[Alatar]

Does Wagners treatment have the same Túrin parallels that I mentioned?

[truehobbit]

Glaurung casts a spell on Túrin with his last glance, while Siegfried is rendered all but invulnerable by bathing in Fafnirs blood.

I think those two are hardly comparable. The spell wasn't a beneficient thing, but it was something the dragon actively did, while bathing in a dragon's blood is nothing the dragon actively does but it is a beneficient thing (apart from the fact that the protection is imperfect).

Siegfried kills Fafnir by getting beneath him and thrusting upwards into his belly, as does Túrin with Glaurung

And Sam with Shelob, in a way.
I guess it's the only way to kill a monster.

(Oh, and, as it's the second time now the name appears in a thread-title: the spelling is "Nibelung" )

[Alatar]

(Oh, and, as it's the second time now the name appears in a thread-title: the spelling is "Nibelung" )

Strange, both spellings seem equally common:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ri ... gle+Search

[Jude]

Does Wagner's treatment have the same Túrin parallels that I mentioned?

*looks back*

Yes, except for the sword made from a shooting star (which may be mentioned somewhere in the 12+ hours, I just don't remember it offhand, so I suspect it isn't there).

There is the tarnhelm, made by the Dwarf Mîm, who along with all the other dwarves (Nibelungen), has been enslaved by Alberich by virtue of the Ring that he forged from the stolen Rhinegold. Wotan and Loge use the Tarnhelm to trick & kidnap Alberich, but I don't think Siegfried uses it to slay the dragon. He does, however, use Nothung, the broken sword that he inherited from his father, and reforges.

[Jnyusa]

Jude: which may be mentioned somewhere in the 12+ hours, I just don't remember it offhand, so I suspect it isn't there

Riiight! I've tried to sit through the Nibelung a couple times but I'm afraid I've never seen all the pieces and for sure not in order.

I didn't know there was a mini-series. Might be the best way for me to catch up on the particulars.

When I read the Kalavela it struck me that Tolkien had lifted it almost word for word. There is an argument that can be made in favor of doing that sort of thing, I guess, which is that most myths (even across cultures) have repetitive elements. Tolkien has used many of the elements of Norse/Germanic myths and attributed them to his own characters. Not really a novel strategy, if you think about it.

Jn

[truehobbit]

Strange, both spellings seem equally common:

Ok, so it's a common mistake, especially in English. And it does sound like the word should be spelled with an "ie" - but it isn't.

(Note also that you get a "did you mean: Nibelung" when you enter the wrong spelling, and 10,000 returns on your search, but 160,000 on the correct spelling.)

[Alatar]

Strange, both spellings seem equally common:

Ok, so it's a common mistake, especially in English. And it does sound like the word should be spelled with an "ie" - but it isn't.

I've changed it now. I'm still not convinced that both spellings aren't valid though. A bit like color and colour? Is Niebelung an older spelling?

[truehobbit]

Well, colour is British English, color is American English. They are not both equally ok, it depends on which spelling is accepted wherever you use it. I suppose that in publishing, for example, it's either one or the other that is used, not either/or.

German has pretty close orthography rules, there are no acceptable regional variants and things like that, and it's only since the last unfortunate "reform" that there's a handful of words with uncertain spelling.

Before this was regulated, however, everybody spelled things very much the way they thought fit, so it's possible that "Niebelungen" was used, but I don't know and have never seen it written like that. I tried to google a bit, but couldn't find any etymological info, and all the returns on the wrong spelling come from modern sources, people mentioning it in discussions and questions etc, no old books or scripts with the "ie"-spelling - so it's very likely to me those are all from people who simply don't know how it's spelled.
It would be cool if anyone could come up with info on spelling history or etymology.

Edit: here's a nice site containing a pic and the text of one of the original manuscripts: http://www.fh-augsburg.de/%7Eharsch/ger ... _c_00.html

[Alatar]

It certainly seems from my quick google that Nibelung is the correct spelling. Its peculiar that I saw it so often as Niebelung, I know I didn't make it up. Anyway, I stand corrected!

[Jnyusa]

I've also seen it spelled both ways, Alatar.

Jn

[Primula Baggins]

So have I, particularly "Niebelungenlied" for some reason—maybe the "ie" from "lied" infects the first syllable!

And hobby's right that publishers don't tend to allow alternate spellings of anything within the same book.

[truehobbit]

No problem, Alatar - it does seem a very common mistake, very easy to get it wrong, especially as it's not a name from your own language.

LOL, Jny and Prim - seeing it around doesn't make it right.

I've seen "Tolkein" quite a few times, too...

[Primula Baggins]

No, of course it isn't right, hobby.

It's just a very common error, like "Tolkein." That's all I was remarking on.