Health Care Reform

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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Passdagas the Brown wrote:
Primula Baggins wrote:Nothing's over, of course. Sooner or later the Tea Party will be back, with the same tactics and the same goals.
It is highly unlikely that the GOP, even the tea party caucus, will go along with a similar strategy in the near future. Of course their PR machines are going to declare victory. That's what they do. But they are being destroyed in the media, as they should be.

Also, behind the scenes, there is a massive reckoning happening, and people are angry that the leadership in the House adopted this strategy, and that Cruz was allowed to steer things as much as he did.

And all of this resulted in big political negatives, and no concessions whatsoever. The GOP got nothing. That's the price you should pay for extortion.

No, this was a huge loss for the GOP, including the Tea Party wing, and there's little chance we'll see a strategy like this for a while. At least not before the midterms.
I hope so, PtB. But I don't think either party is notable for learning from their mistakes.

Until now, anyway. The mess last time actually taught the Democrats something. This time Obama held, the party held, and they won while the GOP got nothing.

Well, nothing except the massive pre-concession of sequester spending levels. :( But maybe they'll learn from that, too—maybe next time (in a few months), they won't surrender quite all their ground before the negotiations even start.

I'm still having trouble believing Obama didn't promise to cut Social Security or something, as a parting cave.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I'm not sure right now if it was part of the final deal, but I know that before Boehner stepped in with his failed effort to undercut the Senate deal, one of the elements was the deal was that it would require for the first time in years a bi-cameral budget conference. My tiny optimistic side (as opposed to my gigantic cynical side) hopes that they can actually have substantive discussions that leads to a real budget plan that addresses long-term debt, reforms the unfair and completely unwieldy tax code, and yes, includes common-sense reforms of entitlement programs including Social Security and particularly Medicare, which are unsustainable in the long-term without such reforms.
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Frelga wrote:Told ya they would declare victory no matter what.

Is it too cynical to suspect that today's apparent progress is due to their corporate owners finally yanking the chain?
I think that the influence that corporate America has over the GOP in particular and politics in general is probably overstated. This entire thing is a pretty standard example. The weird way that American industries seem end up getting taxed and regulated is another (eg. the current situation with the health insurance industry).

I suspect that the reason is pretty simple. Votes are what matters in politics, and not many people are involved in owning and managing large or even medium-sized corporations. But the Tea Party seems to have a lot of support in the Republican base.
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Post by River »

Money matters a lot in our system as it buys ad time, spam in e-mail accounts, and logistical support for traditional barn-storming. Money also buys lobbyists. However, eventually the system saturates with money and that's when the will of the voters takes over. So when we get mad enough at an industry, regulations happen. To a point. If Congress and the President really set out to fully eff over the health insurers, we'd have something akin to the UK's NHS. Instead, everyone is now required to purchase insurance policies from private companies and those private companies must now conform to certain standards of behavior and provide policies that meet certain minimum standards.
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Post by Frelga »

I agree with River. American policy when it comes to healthcare, energy, and agriculture illustrate, IMO, the high priority of preserving corporate profits. While I don't suggest that the campaign contributions are the primary reason for this, I suspect they play a role.

ETA: Haven't we heard this around the election time? Polls are wrong because we don't like them?

Slate
Republicans were full of reasons why the shutdown hadn’t hurt. Arizona Rep. David Schweikert tore into one reporter’s question about the “polls” showing the GOP’s reputation falling. “Did you look at the samples?” asked Schweikert. After the reporter slumped away, Schweikert told me that the media’s polls missed the target.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Voronwë, of course changes to entitlements are needed. I just think they can be made intelligently and don't have to begin with squeezing the beneficiaries. For example, let Medicare beneficiaries buy drugs from outside the U.S. Raise the salary cap on Social Security by a moderate amount. Plug holes in the system. Then assess and decide what else needs to change.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by JewelSong »

yovargas wrote:You'd think that whoever challenges Bachmann next time could just play that "end times" clip on a loop and win by a landslide......
I have a friend (he may be an "ex-friend" by now) who believes exactly what Bachmann is selling. We have kept up an on-again, off-again email correspondence over the years and much of the time, he has been trying to convince me that the "end times" are near and that I am in "serious trouble" unless I mend my ways and change my beliefs. He often sends me clips or articles that cite various bits of scripture "proving" that the prophecies are indeed, coming to pass. Apparently the increased acceptance of homosexuality is one of these "signs" that the end is near.

Over the past few years, his tone has become more and more strident and he has become more and more frustrated with my refusal to see "how wrong" I really am about...well, everything. There is no way to refute his claims, as disagreement of what is obviously "God's plan" must come from Satan.

I am not sure what people who hold these beliefs actually get out it, except the feeling that they know something most people don't and that, when the Apocalypse arrives (which will be REALLY SOON!) all of us liberals and wrong-believers will get what's coming to us as they, the True Believers, get whisked up into heaven.
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Post by Dave_LF »

It's the exact same psychology as conspiracy theory, IMO, and arguing is exactly as effective. I don't know your friend of course, but I think a lot of these over-the-top individuals have legitimate mental health issues that go undiagnosed and untreated because they dress their delusions up in socially acceptable religious language.
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Post by JewelSong »

I'd like to discuss this further...but this thread is for discussion of Health Care reform. I was going to start a thread in Tol Erressea, but it seems to have less to do with religion and more to do with...something else.

I will start a new thread shortly.
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Post by Cerin »

I'll check out that new thread, but I wanted to comment here, that if Bachmann were a private citizen minding her own business, her beliefs would be of no consequence to anyone but herself. She has a right to them. The problem is the fact that she is attempting to intrude them into politics as an elected official.
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Post by Inanna »

Cerin wrote:I'll check out that new thread, but I wanted to comment here, that if Bachmann were a private citizen minding her own business, her beliefs would be of no consequence to anyone but herself. She has a right to them. The problem is the fact that she is attempting to intrude them into politics as an elected official.
Absolutely. And that is the problem - private beliefs tend to creep into politics all the time.
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Post by Griffon64 »

Primula Baggins wrote:Voronwë, of course changes to entitlements are needed. I just think they can be made intelligently and don't have to begin with squeezing the beneficiaries. For example, let Medicare beneficiaries buy drugs from outside the U.S. Raise the salary cap on Social Security by a moderate amount. Plug holes in the system. Then assess and decide what else needs to change.
Since this is vaguely health care-ish ... ;)

Drugs cost more in the U.S. than in other countries. Fact.

So, why?

There's a couple of broad brush categories that the answers will probably fall into:

a) The drug manufacturers are fleecing ordinary people who need these drugs in order to maximize profit for themselves.

b) A cumulation of various idiosyncrasies in the U.S's treatment of pharmaceutical drugs add up to a big part of the cost. Some candidates that have been suggested in the past:

- The U.S consumer tends to be an early adopter of new drugs. Since drug manufacturers have to recoup R&D costs and make profit during the period drugs are patent-protected, this tend to make drugs more expensive here. On the positive side, this means that U.S citizens and residents get the best, cutting-edge drugs sooner. On the negative side, you have to pay for that privilege.

- The U.S, being a wealthy country [ Yes. The U.S is still a wealthy country compared with the rest of the world, even after the 2008 economic collapse. ], has citizens that can afford higher prices more readily than the rest of the world. So U.S citizens end up subsidizing poorer countries whose citizens also need these drugs, but who simply can't afford U.S prices. The drug companies do not deny them access to the drugs, they just sell the drugs at a lower price and a slimmer profit, and make up their desired profit margin in the U.S.

- The pharmaceutical industry advertises heavily in the U.S. All that advertising costs have to be recouped from the local market. Hence, more expensive drugs.

- Regulations. The U.S drug market is said to be heavily regulated, which protects the health of consumers, but also adds to the cost of drugs.

- Brick and mortar pharmacies. A pharmacist degree takes 8 years and a pharmacist typically makes six figures. Add in pharmacy technicians and so on, and it does add a little to the cost of the drugs. On the other hand, you also get better quality care.

- Medicare typically negotiates lower prices for their patients' drugs. The cost savings for Medicare is then passed on to the other consumers.

I am just a layman trying to get a picture of what is happening by reading different opinions in this area, so I can't say which of these broad schools of thought holds more truth.

But, if we take the suggestion to allow Medicare patients to purchase their drugs back from those other countries that are subsidized by U.S drug buyers and free of paying for the direct to consumer advertising, it seems like it will just introduce another inefficiency in the system. Now those patients have to pay for shipping back to the U.S and you've wasted resources exporting and re-importing something. That's silly. Medicare patients are already subsidized a little bit by the general population because Medicare tends to negotiate lower prices. Maybe that should instead be taken further by saying Medicare patients get to pay cost, or maybe cost plus one or two percent, for drugs, and the subsidizing part gets passed on to the general population, making drugs more expensive for anyone not on Medicare? Or maybe that won't be a fair way to deal with this aspect of raising health care costs?

Perhaps some consideration can be given to banning direct to consumer advertising. Studies suggest that this is expensive yet has a negligible effect on increasing use of drugs. You don't take drugs you don't need, and your doctor has to prescribe them first, kind of a thing. This would be cost savings for many more users of pharmaceutical drugs. It will put some advertising agencies and marketing departments out a job, but, well, someone's gotta pay. There's a sort-of precedent for this with cigarette advertising.

Maybe drug companies should be prevented from taking profits above a certain threshold. I have no idea whether this can be enforced or not.

I tend to think that a problem with this many entangled components to it will need an overall solution, not a solution focused on a single area. And to be honest, while I understand the premise behind Social Security to some extent, I'm still sort of fuzzy on the what and why of Medicare. So I will need to do my homework on that first before I can speak at all to whether changes to the program would make sense in my opinion.
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Post by elfshadow »

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that Medicare is not allowed to negotiate lower drug prices.
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Post by Griffon64 »

No, you are right!

I may have been thinking of the Department of Veteran Affairs, there's been recent articles about them in the news and I believe they do negotiate. And then stuff blended together in my head. Sorry about that!

I wonder what percentage of drug purchases in the U.S is done via Medicare and how allowing or disallowing price negotiations for Medicare would affect the U.S drug market as a whole, or at all.

One concern I would have is that lowering drug prices in only one area - say, for Medicare beneficiaries via negotiations - would cause a compensating rise in prices for other groups. I would rather analyze the price U.S consumers pay for drugs and determine the reasons for that price, and see what can be done to alleviate the reasons for the high cost for everybody. That's not to say that allowing Medicare to negotiate should be dismissed out of hand. It seems like it should be part of the answer! ( As an aside, so how is the current price set for Medicare patients? Just market price, same as it is for other consumers? )

I just don't have a clear enough picture of the system that determines drug prices, and the system that comprise Medicare, and how those systems interact to be able to determine which amendments would be helpful. Without that knowledge, I'd be a bit suspicious of any "one easy fix" single-angle solutions. It is tempting to say that outlandish profits is that "one easy fix" - it is tempting for me for sure! - but I only know about the "outlandish profits" from what I see in the media, not from analyzing pharmaceutical companies' financial statements and reading the occasional CEO salary thrown about.

Regardless of the finer mechanisms, I believe that something needs to be done about the cost of entitlement programs - both Social Security and Medicare - because they are not presently on a sustainable trajectory.

I just struggle to drum up any confidence that the current climate in Washington has the ability to do so. :neutral:
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Post by River »

Consequences of the shutdown: I found my boss about ready to hang himself this afternoon. He had a grant due in mid-October and another due in mid-November. Now he has two grants due at the same time.
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Post by yovargas »

River wrote:Consequences of the shutdown: I found my boss about ready to hang himself this afternoon.
Umm, not literally I hope??
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River
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Post by River »

No. Only figuratively. I suppose he could have been working on the grant due in October while he was furloughed, but my boss, even though he showed up (we're on a university campus; the doors stayed open and he uses a university e-mail account) had a pretty severe case of the ****-its these past couple weeks.
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Post by Frelga »

Speaking of money in politics: Some insurgent Republicans see weaker fundraising

It looks like the business is shifting toward supporting less extremist candidates. It's hard to say exactly what it will when the primaries begin.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

River wrote:No. Only figuratively. I suppose he could have been working on the grant due in October while he was furloughed, but my boss, even though he showed up (we're on a university campus; the doors stayed open and he uses a university e-mail account) had a pretty severe case of the ****-its these past couple weeks.
I was the fastest typist in our lab, and I used to work till 8 PM regularly when grant applications were due. With a Dictaphone, with the foot pedal and everything. The department head's secretary used to come by and deep-massage my shoulder muscles so I could type faster (while I kept typing, of course). So your boss has my sympathies.

(I am not even a touch typist. Just seriously fast. I've wished over and over again I'd learned right, but in my day they didn't teach that stuff except to people who expected to be, y'know, typists.)
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

I am not even a touch typist. Just seriously fast. I've wished over and over again I'd learned right, but in my day they didn't teach that stuff except to people who expected to be, y'know, typists.
OT, but I had the same problem. Through typing hundreds of thousands of words I've become fairly fast, but I can't touch-type. I still type with two fingers. But that wasn't an issue when I was child, because my parents assumed that I would be destined for the professions and have typists to type for me.
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