The Desolation of Smaug anticipation thread [SPOILERS]

Post by **Elentári** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:49 pm

I'm trying to keep a balance...in my heart of hearts I want to love TH as much as I did LotR, and there are things I am looking forward to, but there are so many choices I wish had been made differently this time around.

Post by **yovargas** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:54 pm

Maybe someone start a separate "anticipation of disaster thread" thread.

Post by **Passdagas the Brown** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:36 pm

axordil wrote:My interest in the movie threads here has been near zero for some time. Relentless negativity is worse than relentless fanboy chatter--at least the latter has some energy and excitement to it, however ill-founded.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I think it is misguided when it comes to this forum. The negativity expressed here by most is hardly relentless (except for sinister's contributions, which lean in that direction). I have been, for example, reasonably positive about the AUJ EE. But I find that most of the critical opinions on this forum are expressed with thoughtfulness and insight.

Yes, fan forums bristle with more positive energy. But isn't it also a healthy form of energy to passionately discuss filmic and narrative flaws, and imagine a vision of a far better Hobbit film?

At the heart of my own criticism is my love of film- making, and the strong artistic vision I have had for such a production since my early teens!

Personally, I find that sort of passion just as invigorating as expressions of glee over the design of Tauriel's daggers.

So yes, I greatly anticipate DOS. With trepidation!

Post by **axordil** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:23 pm

But isn't it also a healthy form of energy to passionately discuss filmic and narrative flaws, and imagine a vision of a far better Hobbit film?

In the same way it's a healthy form of energy to imagine "what if I won the lottery?" It's fun for about ten minutes, and then reality kicks back in. The Tolkien movies we all have in our heads will never get any farther than that. Someone else's vision, howsoever lacking, got made instead.

I like well-written film takedowns as much as the next guy--possibly more. But a steady diet of months of it directed at the same project, or more specifically, the failings of the scriptwriting/directing/producing team for that project, is like fingernails on chalkboard at this point.

I haven't gone to TORC for years, and one reason is the fannishness, which has a similar grating effect on me. I guess I'm just at that point in life where I like what I like, and I dislike what I dislike, and I don't feel I need to justify any of it to anyone.

Which kind of makes hanging out in these threads a waste of time for me.

Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:40 pm

Ax, I hope that you will be more interested in participating during the time period after the film(s) come out. I find the relentless criticism in the speculation time period to be pretty grating, because we just don't really know what it is going be like. At least discussion of the actually content are more rooted in reality

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:12 am

I'm looking forward to that phase, too. I remember this period when LotR was coming out. I remember feeling impatient with both the "PJ's a genius who can do no wrong" cohort and the "PJ's a hack who has despoiled the book" cohort—at least during the time when all we had to go on was rumors and set photos and trailers.

I loved LotR, and still do, despite its flaws. I didn't love AUJ, but I'm ready to like the next one more. Mostly I just want to wait and see for myself, then talk it over with other people who have also seen it.

Post by **sinister71** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:44 am

Elentári wrote:
kzer_za wrote:LotR was really pretty restrained with CG. PJ still used physical special effects, old-fashioned scale tricks like forced perspective and standing on a box, miniatures, lots of location shooting, etc.
Yeah, and we have the great god 3D to blame for the absence of those things this time round.

Never been a fan of 3D. I've always found it to be just a cheap gimmick from the Halloween 3 in 3D, the 3D Friday the 13th film to every modern day action adventure film having to use this worthless(IMO) gimmick. Sadly the Hobbit suffers for it IMO.

The miniatures and bigatures were a huge part of LOTR. It was part of the look Jackson established with those films. I'm sorry but IMO CGI is not up to the standard of something physical you can actually feel and touch and put just as much detail into as the real thing. Too many parts of AUJ looked like a video game instead of a film. I'll take 2D with practical effects anyday over the modern style of CGI, fake sets, green screen which I know there was some of on LOTR.

Post by **sinister71** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:54 am

Passdagas the Brown wrote:
axordil wrote:My interest in the movie threads here has been near zero for some time. Relentless negativity is worse than relentless fanboy chatter--at least the latter has some energy and excitement to it, however ill-founded.
I appreciate the sentiment, but I think it is misguided when it comes to this forum. The negativity expressed here by most is hardly relentless (except for sinister's contributions, which lean in that direction). I have been, for example, reasonably positive about the AUJ EE. But I find that most of the critical opinions on this forum are expressed with thoughtfulness and insight.

Yes, fan forums bristle with more positive energy. But isn't it also a healthy form of energy to passionately discuss filmic and narrative flaws, and imagine a vision of a far better Hobbit film?

At the heart of my own criticism is my love of film- making, and the strong artistic vision I have had for such a production since my early teens!

Personally, I find that sort of passion just as invigorating as expressions of glee over the design of Tauriel's daggers.

So yes, I greatly anticipate DOS. With trepidation!

I'm not relentless

and I have said there are things about AUJ that I did like. I point out good things too but compared to the stuff that makes no sense they are fewer in number. So every criticism I have raised with Jackson's Hobbit films are opinion. Maybe people don't want to hear the negative, but they are there. Contrary to wanting everything all rosey and happy.

The production on these films is as always top notch. The direction they have taken them in though is lacking in comparison to LOTR. No respect to the source material and a constant ohh well were enjoying changing the story because we felt it wasn't good enough repetitive comments from Jackson and his co writers.

Post by **Passdagas the Brown** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:00 am

sinister71 wrote:
Passdagas the Brown wrote:
axordil wrote:My interest in the movie threads here has been near zero for some time. Relentless negativity is worse than relentless fanboy chatter--at least the latter has some energy and excitement to it, however ill-founded.
I appreciate the sentiment, but I think it is misguided when it comes to this forum. The negativity expressed here by most is hardly relentless (except for sinister's contributions, which lean in that direction). I have been, for example, reasonably positive about the AUJ EE. But I find that most of the critical opinions on this forum are expressed with thoughtfulness and insight.

Yes, fan forums bristle with more positive energy. But isn't it also a healthy form of energy to passionately discuss filmic and narrative flaws, and imagine a vision of a far better Hobbit film?

At the heart of my own criticism is my love of film- making, and the strong artistic vision I have had for such a production since my early teens!

Personally, I find that sort of passion just as invigorating as expressions of glee over the design of Tauriel's daggers.

So yes, I greatly anticipate DOS. With trepidation!
I'm not relentless and I have said there are things about AUJ that I did like. I point out good things too but compared to the stuff that makes no sense they are fewer in number. So every criticism I have raised with Jackson's Hobbit films are opinion. Maybe people don't want to hear the negative, but they are there. Contrary to wanting everything all rosey and happy.

The production on these films is as always top notch. The direction they have taken them in though is lacking in comparison to LOTR. No respect to the source material and a constant ohh well were enjoying changing the story because we felt it wasn't good enough repetitive comments from Jackson and his co writers.

sinister,

Honestly, I didn't intend for "relentless" to carry a necessarily negative connotation. I was just making the observation that your criticism of the films, PJ and team are highly likely to show up in many discussion topics, and very likely to be very, very negative, and quite "literally" purist at heart.

Obviously, I have huge problems with PJ and company, and am very critical of the films. But I get there through a strong (and personal) artistic vision for what the films could be that goes well beyond the "why did they change that detail from the book?"

I know you have gone to some lengths to show your appreciation for LOTR, etc. But it would be silly to deny that your criticisms of the Hobbit film and production have been strident, and relentless!

Embrace it. But just be mindful that others might tire of it.

Post by **Passdagas the Brown** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:13 am

axordil wrote:
But isn't it also a healthy form of energy to passionately discuss filmic and narrative flaws, and imagine a vision of a far better Hobbit film?
In the same way it's a healthy form of energy to imagine "what if I won the lottery?" It's fun for about ten minutes, and then reality kicks back in. The Tolkien movies we all have in our heads will never get any farther than that. Someone else's vision, howsoever lacking, got made instead.

Honestly, I'm not quite sure what reality has to do with it.

Some of us - and me personally for sure - find it interesting and consolatory to vicariously make a Hobbit film to our taste through constructing that film via arguments on Tolkien messageboards. For me, it's a creative and fantastical exercise (as I will never actually make any Tolkien-themed films) to essentially sketch out, via discussions of PJ's films, what kind of film I would make.

Both LOTR and AUJ were significant disappointments for me not because I am a purist (I am not), but because I love film, and I love Tolkien, and I wanted to see these stories masterfully translated to the realm of moving pictures.

Discussing my problems with the films, and offering an alternative vision, are also my ways of coping with that disappointment. If I can't have the films I wanted, I would at least like to discuss the films I wanted. Perhaps I should simply see a therapist instead?

I think that criticism of the films is a legitimate exercise that is appropriate in a forum like this one, which is generally free of some of the "hater" bashing that occurs on other forums. Does that have to interest you? Of course not. But I don't think it's fair to disparage this perspective in the discussion.

Personally, I find criticism to be a far more interesting and creative pursuit than the mere expression of excitement about what someone else is producing. But I would never go out of my way to disparage those who love PJ's films, or who "relentlessly" express their love and excitement for them. Why it's acceptable to go out of one's way to disparage the "relentless" critics is beyond me.

If you ain't interested, just ignore it! That's what I do.

Post by **sinister71** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:21 am

I wasn't sure where to put this but I copied and pasted from my TORc post so that people might understand me better and say goodbye for a while. I'm going to stick to being a mod on one forum and maybe posting on only one other forum for now... I'll probably continue lurking but probably remain silent. Probably better for everyone

Not that anyone cares but I am going to post this here and then I am going to say goodbye for a while. I really feel I need to get away from the Hobbit as Jackson has done it and take a break from all things Hobbit other than my book of course. Most people really don't care about my posts, probably just ignore them anyways. And I know my views on Peter Jackson's Hobbit are less than appreciated But I can at least say I am honest about my feelings. I don't normally get close to people and like to keep to myself lately, almost as I did as a child. I grew up in a home with an abusive drinking father who when he wasn't beating me for doing something wrong was ignoring me drowning himself in a bottle. My mother was never home and was constantly working although she did try and make sure I was alright and had things I needed or enjoyed. Around December when i was 6 and seeing the Rankin and Bass Hobbit cartoon around Thanksgiving time, My mom presented me with a copy of the book (which I still have to this day and treasure above even my original 1937 original copy) I found the book to be rather enjoyable to read and easy to immerse myself into. Never once thinking of it in a childish way. The characters to me seemed real and I could see it in my head as real people. Not the cartoon R&B version. Year after year I would read that book and hide from my real world pain of being an abused child. It became something i found joy in reading. The Hobbit book became my sanctuary, my place to hide where my father couldn't beat me for god knows what... That book was my salvation and honetly probably saved my life, because I would literally hide in my closet with a flashlight and read it...My father realized the errors of his ways and quit drinking when I was about 12 but I already had those scars and learned to hide them well. A big part of hiding was thru the Hobbit book. A book I still read at least twice a year no matter what I have going on in my life.

After LOTR was released I realized although the movies weren't exactly like the book they still felt like Tolkien to me. I could feel the reverence to the source material, and love that went into those films based on that source material. Now fast forward 10 years to hearing the Hobbit was finally going to be made into a set of two films. I was ecstatic, HOLY CRAP!!! my favorite book ever is finally going to see life on the big screen. Given the treatment LOTR was given I was super excited.

Then it happened...

The first pictures of the dwarfs were released. Well at first I was shocked, I hated more than half of the concepts. Bifur with the axe in the head, the starfish head Nori, the beardless dwarf Kili, Thorin and his short beard, Bombur looking like Obelix, and so on. The only dwarfs I truly cared for from the start were Gloin and Oin honestly. Then I got used to the majority of the dwarfs other than the axe in Bifur's head although I think Bifur himself looks quite good now other than the axe. Then things IMO got worse and worse and the film became more about Sauron and his return once again rather than about Bilbo going on an adventure with 13 dwarfs for treasure. It became more about Gandalf orchestrating some grand scheme to get rid of Smaug while the whole story Jacksonis telling has been constantly reminding us of LOTR, undertones of the ring ever since Riddles in the dark. The whole DolGuldur subplot is becoming just as important as Bilbo's part of the story with Sauron becoming a major player instead of the 2 sentences like in the book. I understand the whole Quest for Erebor and people wanting that as part of the story but IMO they don't have the rights they should leave it alone. I could see things from it hinted at without making the whole film a result of Sauron's return with the ring being made a main character as well in a way. More and more the story has become something OTHER than the Hobbit. I really do like some of the things that have stayed close to the book. I love some things but I really am getting overly upset about the treatment of Tolkien's book by Jackson. It has become a rewrite and not the story I love which is Tolkien's Hobbit.

Hopefully my history with the Hobbit has shed some light on my perspective and why I am very critical and opposed to the drastic changes Jackson has made. I do not ever expect anyone to care how I feel or change anyones mind but posting my disappointment has been therapeutic for me and I am sure frustrating for others who think the Hobbit films are brilliant. But for me Jackson's Hobbit will never be good films like LOTR so long as they continue to disrespect the source material. Adaptation is one thing rewrite is something else. So I think at this point I'm going to take an extended break from posting, simply lurk, and let people enjoy Peter Jackson's version maybe as much as I enjoy Tolkien's. I just wanted to let people know what the Hobbit means to me and why. Whether I'm understood or not remains to be seen... For those I offended I'm sorry and for those who agree with me hopefully something of Tolkien will show thru and make these films enjoyable. For me I think I'm about done and will stick to my book.

Post by **Passdagas the Brown** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:36 am

sinister,

This is a powerful and moving confession, and I applaud you for having the guts to post it.

If it's any consolation, Stephen Colbert (and I suspect many other fans) also came to Tolkien after a very devastating personal tragedy, which involved his father and two older brothers dying in a plane crash. Tolkien's stories offer a place to go for consolation that is, for me, outside the ability of any other author.

On a less dramatic scale, I was also so deeply disappointed with PJ's vision of Middle Earth, that for a while it drove me to minor depression. Luckily, satisfying professional pursuits, a wonderful wife (and best friend), hobbies and family, made me realize that it was ridiculous to get too worked up about these things. In the context of a 13.7-billion year old universe, it's such an incredibly tiny blip after all.

I hope you can find some other comforts to dull the impact of this disappointment. At the very least, you are certainly not alone!

Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:32 am

I very much agree that that was a brave thing to say. I do want you to know that you are welcome here, if and when you feel comfortable posting.

Post by **Elentári** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:27 am

Sinister,

Thank you for sharing this with us. I hope you won't stay away too much, and that DoS and TABA turn out to have much in them that causes you to cheer!

Post by **Elentári** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:07 am

Latest news on DoS run-time...

UK cinemas programming 160 mins for The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug; UK tix on sale from Nov 1

Post by **Alatar** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:54 am

I hope I haven't driven anyone away from posting. I was merely trying to explain why I felt driven away and was asking people to allow at least a couple of places where we could enjoy the film and anticipation without constant negativity. Of course there is a place for criticism, and nobody ever suggested there wasn't. Its just there also needs to be a place for people to just enjoy the ride.

Post by **Alatar** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:42 pm

New TV spot has some new lines from Bilbo and Balin. Its the 5th one.

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/10 ... -of-smaug/

Post by **Passdagas the Brown** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:20 pm

Alatar wrote:I hope I haven't driven anyone away from posting. I was merely trying to explain why I felt driven away and was asking people to allow at least a couple of places where we could enjoy the film and anticipation without constant negativity. Of course there is a place for criticism, and nobody ever suggested there wasn't. Its just there also needs to be a place for people to just enjoy the ride.

The emphasis on Balin and Bilbo is very encouraging. Honestly, if PJ and company decided to focus on Bilbo-Thorin-Balin to the exclusion of much of the less central material (politics of Mirkwood, Laketown, etc) I would be happy. There's such rich character stuff in there, and Ken Stott is this trilogy's scene stealer, IMO.

Post by **Elentári** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:18 am

Scans of latest EMPIRE feature...

Post by **Alatar** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:47 am

Thanks Elen! Some good stuff in there, and some warning signs also, but nothing that really worried me!