The Lord of the Rings - A 12 Hour movie

Post by **Alatar** » Mon May 29, 2006 4:26 pm

I sat down with a couple of friends and watched the three Extended Editions back to back yesterday. As a single movie, it works on a different level to the way it did in seperate installments. I thought I'd share my thoughts, for what they're worth.

Firstly, I have to say thanks to TTBK and his wonderful Soundtrack analysis threads for adding a whole new dimension to the viewing experience. Shore's score was always a huge part of the movie's success for me, but with the added insights I got from TTBK it became an incredibly rich experience. Highly recommended!

In essence I have to say that the film works best when it sticks closely to the books. In the seperate movies I was ok with Gimli's comic relief moments, but seen in quick succession they don't work so well. He does have his kickass moments, but they are few and far between. For all the grief people have over Faramir, I thought he was far better served by the movies than Gimli. In fact, I have no problem with Faramir in the movies at all. His character works very well and is fully developed. Boromir is probably my favourite characterisation, but I also love Gandalf, Aragorn and the two younger Hobbits. Frodo and Sam both have weak moments I'm afraid. Sam in particular gives me problems.

Funnily enough, my biggest issue with the movie was Gollum. I found him to be unconvincing in too many places. Leaving aside the technical achievement, I find the character unsatisfying. Sméagol is too childlike to be convincing and the split personality is overdone. He is more of a caricature than a character when he is center stage. However, when he is "off camera" he's at his best.

The Visuals and Sound Effects are damn near flawless. The only problems are in the adaption and in some of the "over the top" sequences.

Scenes that I felt do not work in retrospect:

Fellowship:
The near drowning of Sam.

Two Towers:
Aragorns Cliff Dive and Horsey Kiss
Ents deciding wrong

Return of the King:
The Dead coming to Minas Tirith

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Mon May 29, 2006 5:41 pm

My parents just got a 50-inch plasma HDTV, and I am wondering if it would be, well, wrong, to use my key some weekend when they're off kiyoodling and stage a teensy marathon. . . .

I can well believe they feel differently as a single film. I'm interested by the things that didn't work for you. At least, Sam's drowning—I thought was staged a little heavy-handedly, but it led to one of my favorite scenes in the film.

(I agree with you about Sam—he has some of my favorite moments in the films, and some of my least favorite! Quiet or sad or determined Sam moves me; blustery or angry or preachy Sam puts me out of the film.)

Post by **Old_Tom_Bombadil** » Mon May 29, 2006 9:33 pm

Primula Baggins wrote:I agree with you about Sam—he has some of my favorite moments in the films, and some of my least favorite!

I wasn't too impressed with Sam in the first two films, but he ROCKED in ROTK!

Still, I think it would have been even better if Jackson had portrayed: The Choices of Master Samwise

(Thanks for the clip, Alatar.

)

I would have liked to have seen Sam plug Bill Ferny in the nose with an apple, too.

As far as distasteful moments, while Gimli's crudeness did not sit well with me, I was even more put off by (1) Aragorn's beheading of the Mouth of Sauron in the ROTK extended edition, (2) Faramir and his thugs abuse of Gollum, and (3) Gandalf's wizard fu on Denethor.

Primula_Baggins wrote:My parents just got a 50-inch plasma HDTV, and I am wondering if it would be, well, wrong, to use my key some weekend when they're off kiyoodling and stage a teensy marathon. . . .

Old Tom and Goldberry have had an all-day marathon on their 52-inch with surround sound. To quote Ferris Bueller, "It was choice."

What's kiyoodling, precious? What's kiyoodling?

Post by **JewelSong** » Mon May 29, 2006 9:56 pm

Primula Baggins wrote:My parents just got a 50-inch plasma HDTV, and I am wondering if it would be, well, wrong, to use my key some weekend when they're off kiyoodling and stage a teensy marathon. . . .

Wrong? Hardly. I would think it an obligation on your part.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Mon May 29, 2006 10:12 pm

Kiyoodling is taking the train to the nearest big city, putting up at a nice hotel, and going to the opera or plays or a concert or more than one of the above. Plus shopping. Plus nice dinners. That's kiyoodling.

Sheesh. Retired people. You'd think they feel they earned it or something.

My least favorite bits would have to include PJ Pirate getting plugged by Legolas. I would also include Denethor's Flambé Plunge, except that the image is right purty.

However, the beacons still, still, STILL take my breath away and bring tears to my eyes. Still.

Post by **Alatar** » Mon May 29, 2006 10:31 pm

It's funny but none of those things bothered me this time round. It's like I was expecting them to, so they didn't. Even Legolas' shield surf was fine. Maybe I'm just enured (sp?) to those bits and they don't bother me any more.

I've never had a problem with Faramir's men thumping Gollum. It was a time of war, they were in contested territory and they had a probable spy in their midst. Were they gonna make him tea?

Mouth of Sauron never bothered me either. I know all the delicate objections to it, but he bloody had it coming.

Post by **Old_Tom_Bombadil** » Mon May 29, 2006 11:34 pm

Primula Baggins wrote:Kiyoodling is taking the train to the nearest big city, putting up at a nice hotel, and going to the opera or plays or a concert or more than one of the above. Plus shopping. Plus nice dinners. That's kiyoodling.

Ah, thanks for the info. It seems that kiyoodling is rather all-inclusive sort of activity, isn't it? I had pictured kiyoodling being a combination of yodeling and kayaking.

Kiyoodling: The next Olympic sport?

Alatar wrote:Mouth of Sauron never bothered me either. I know all the delicate objections to it, but he bloody had it coming.

Deserves beheading! I daresay he does. Many that have heads don't deserve them. And some that lose their heads deserve them. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to behead evil minions in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.

Ahem, sorry. I was having a Gandalf moment.

Alatar wrote:I've never had a problem with Faramir's men thumping Gollum. It was a time of war, they were in contested territory and they had a probable spy in their midst. Were they gonna make him tea?

Mercy, Alatar, mercy. It's one of Tolkien's central themes. That's one way of knowing the good guys from the bad guys. The bad guys are cruel, the good guys are merciful...

...and keep your nassssty tea!

Alatar wrote:In essence I have to say that the film works best when it sticks closely to the books.

I very much feel the same, but I wonder if it's because that's what I'm familiar with and expect to see, or is it because that's what's most dramatically poignant. I don't think I can objectively answer that question for myself.

That being said, I do seem to recall the filmmakers stating that they would initially try things differently from the book, but would often be drawn back to the books. I think the major weakness of the films is that Jackson did not trust the books enough. It seemed the more departures from the book he made, the more he'd have to take to make it work.

Post by **Sassafras** » Mon May 29, 2006 11:53 pm

I haven't watched the films in months but I do remember being struck anew with how uneven they are. ROTK is particularly bad in this respect; the pacing leading up to Minis Tirith is awful.

I still think PJ didn't trust his audience enough and I still think he thought he could improve on Tolkien. He was wrong on both counts.

Leaving aside the technical achievement, I find the character unsatisfying. Sméagol is too childlike to be convincing and the split personality is overdone. He is more of a caricature than a character when he is center stage.

Alatar, I've had the same reaction to Gollum from my first viewing. The opportunity to present him as an individual whose soul was in torment was sacrificed for the superficially obvious.
And the screeching got on my nerves!

Prim, sadly I do not share your reverie for the Beacons scene. I thought it pedestrian cinematography 101. Pretty mountains. Barely visible flames in daylight .... above cloud cover (!) and a horrendous set-up with (not)comic Pippin knocking over the lamp. Meh!

Mouth of Sauron never bothered me either

Post by **Alatar** » Mon May 29, 2006 11:55 pm

What can I say. I love the books. I love the films. I just don't expect them to be each other.

Post by **axordil** » Tue May 30, 2006 12:42 am

A 12-hour version should become an 11-hour version with edits, because roughly an hour of the total is going to be superfluous buildups to climaxes that no longer have to be quite so climactic. You can lose ten minutes each off the setups for the FOTR and TTT finales without much thought, and then take a few minutes off the beginnings of TTT and ROTK to allow better meshing. There are other recapitulation scenes in TTT and ROTK that can also be trimmed or dropped. And then there are the numerous five second snippets...

You could also do a bit of reordering that way, so that you don't have the aforementioned issues with pacing in the early part of ROTK.

Really, anyone with decent video software on their PC could do a "phantom edit."

Post by **MithLuin** » Tue May 30, 2006 1:25 am

A year ago, I invited some friends over and had a weekend marathon - FotR EE on Friday night, followed by TTT and RotK on Saturday. I preferred breaks for things like meals, walking around, talking to these people, and seeing daylight

. So, we had at least a couple of hours between films, and sometimes short breaks between DVDs. I think I also ran off at one point during TTT to take a shower

.

But anyway, I think it is different to watch them all at once. Some of the ties between them are stronger when you see and hear it with it fresh in your memory. It is also fun to watch them with a group of people (at home), because you can make all the goofy comments - about Sauron's batting skills in the Prologue, or the Scrubbing Bubbles at Minas Tirith, or "by rights, we shouldn't even be here!" It makes the awkward parts much more bearable, though I think I still winced or groaned at some of the lines.

Prim wrote:I agree with you about Sam—he has some of my favorite moments in the films, and some of my least favorite! Quiet or sad or determined Sam moves me; blustery or angry or preachy Sam puts me out of the film.

Yes, I agree that there is that two-sided-ness to him - I love him when he's doing the "I can carry you" stuff, but "do you remember the taste of strawberries?" gets a bit long-winded. When I tried to write him myself (in a short fanfiction), he came out almost all blustery. It is painful for me to read some of the stuff I wrote - so I do take some pity on the writers and admit that they are better than I am....but I don't quite let them off the hook for the end of TTT.

Post by **Old_Tom_Bombadil** » Tue May 30, 2006 2:38 am

Favorite Moments Re-visited

HALDIR

Caras Galadhon, the heart of Elvendom on Earth, home of Celeborn and of Galadriel, the Lady of Light.

LEGOLAS

Caras Galadhon!

ARAGORN

Caras Galadhon!

GIMLI

It's only a model.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Tue May 30, 2006 2:53 am

Post by **superwizard** » Tue May 30, 2006 11:12 am

Really the thing that drives me crazy in the movies is the portrayal of Gimli. I just don't think that such a great dwarf be portrayed so comically.

Post by **yovargas** » Tue May 30, 2006 4:09 pm

Sam is perfect!!!!!!!!!

*swoons for preachy Sam*

Post by **Alys** » Tue May 30, 2006 4:19 pm

That sounds like so much fun Alatar (although I think I'd prefer MithLuin's timetable) and we've meant to do it for ages now but never quite got round to it.

I think that my aversion to TTT is partially responsible, even though I found the extended version much better, I still can't watch Aragorn falling off the cliff (I never thought it worked and have ranted about it at every opportunity since) and I think I'd have to fast forward past that bit to ensure my temper stays even throughout! Perhaps I should get myself a personalised edit that adds that to Ax's ideas for things to be deleted?

Post by **Erunáme** » Tue May 30, 2006 6:49 pm

Alatar wrote:Funnily enough, my biggest issue with the movie was Gollum. I found him to be unconvincing in too many places. Leaving aside the technical achievement, I find the character unsatisfying. Sméagol is too childlike to be convincing and the split personality is overdone. He is more of a caricature than a character when he is center stage. However, when he is "off camera" he's at his best.

Sassafras wrote:Alatar, I've had the same reaction to Gollum from my first viewing. The opportunity to present him as an individual whose soul was in torment was sacrificed for the superficially obvious.
And the screeching got on my nerves!

Interesting. I've been rereading the books and in the past few days I've been reading the later half of TTT. Many times I've thought that the movies really did get Gollum right...at least in the language and attitude. He seemed to screech a lot and be completely annoying in the book...at least that's the way I feel. One thing that does bother me about the movie is we don't see Gollum talking about "she" until the very end. It makes it seem like he didn't decide to take Frodo to Shelob until he was "betrayed" by Frodo. It works better with him saying this earlier on, as it displays his drive to get the Ring more clearly...that he didn't lead Frodo to Shelob out of revenge.

Alatar wrote:Mouth of Sauron never bothered me either. I know all the delicate objections to it, but he bloody had it coming.

Only part of Mouth of Sauron that bothers me is the split skin around the lips. It's so gross and painful looking!

Sassafras wrote:I still think PJ didn't trust his audience enough and I still think he thought he could improve on Tolkien. He was wrong on both counts.

I can't quite agree with the later. It's my opinion that PJ did improve the characters somewhat. Now he didn't improve the story, so that much I can agree with. Personally, I like movie Aragorn quite a bit more than book Aragorn. And of course including Arwen a lot more was a definate improvement, imo.

Post by **Old_Tom_Bombadil** » Wed May 31, 2006 4:37 am

Eruname wrote:Interesting. I've been rereading the books and in the past few days I've been reading the later half of TTT. Many times I've thought that the movies really did get Gollum right...at least in the language and attitude. He seemed to screech a lot and be completely annoying in the book...at least that's the way I feel.

I totally agree.

Eruname wrote:Only part of Mouth of Sauron that bothers me is the split skin around the lips. It's so gross and painful looking!

Yeah, his mouth was pretty gnarly but not to be unexpected of so thoroughly evil a character. And if anyone was a comic caricature of his character from the book, it was the Mouth of Sauron. He was over-the-top hilarious!

Kiyoodling, anyone?

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 am

Now I've gone and corrupted Iarwain Ben-adar!

and they said it couldn't be done

Post by **Erunáme** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:16 am

Old_Tom_Bombadil wrote:Yeah, his mouth was pretty gnarly but not to be unexpected of so thoroughly evil a character. And if anyone was a comic caricature of his character from the book, it was the Mouth of Sauron. He was over-the-top hilarious!

If your mouth had split skin all around it would you grimace that wide to split the skin even more? I think not. It was silly.