Do you believe in God/god(s)/a "higher power"?

[Cerin]

But yov, for the answer to the question to make any sense, the question has to define certain commonly understood (by the responders) parameters.

In other words, suppose you asked the question, do you like fruit? But by fruit, you are thinking of apples, and your responders are thinking of kumquats, oranges and kiwi. You haven't really gained an answer to your question if your responders like the fruits they are thinking of but don't like apples. In fact, what you have gained is a wrong impression of how your responders feel about apples.

For myself, I think the concept of a unifying force or commonality of which we are all a part, or of a greater self, is substantially different from the concept of a 'higher' power, which must mean, I think, something with more or greater power or authority than oneself.

What you seem to be asking is, do you have some kind of spiritual (mystical) belief, or do you not believe in a spiritual (mystical) aspect of existence?

[yovargas]

I think only the individual can define what God means to them.
I have no desire to do so for anybody else.

[Maria]

I think I'm going to have to re-read "Stranger", Voronwë. My worldview has changed considerably since I read it last and I'll probably notice something new and interesting this time around.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'd be interested in your thoughts, Maria. It's really the only book of Heinlein's that I really like alot.

For those who don't know what we are talking about, we are referring to Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land and the main character, Michael Valentine Smith (the "Man from Mars"), who's main philosophy can be summed up as "Thou Art God".

[The Watcher]

Voronwë -

One of my favorite books.

So, who groks?

Yovi, I cannot answer your poll properly. While I do not personally find a need for faith, and certainly am sort of negative on organized religions in general, at the same time I often suspect that there is something of the divine in the very design of our universe and within each and every thing contained within it. But, do not ask me to define "divine" here - it would not mean something that I feel the need to worship, maybe respect would be the better acknowledgment.

[yovargas]

Perhaps I should have made the question "Do you believe in some form of the divine?"

Yeah, looking at it, I think that would be a much better poll. I think I'll do a second stab at it (unless someone can improve the question ).

[Alatar]

I grok you.

We should have a Heinlein thread. Just got "Have Spacesuit Will Travel" full cast audiobook.

[Cerin]

I'm not sure that's much different than what you have now, yov.

What about, 'do you believe there is a spiritual dimension to reality, or do you think the physical world is all there is.'

[Democritus]

I am devoutly atheist.

[TIGG]

I am deeply spiritual and yet do not worship any 'God'.

My sense of serenity and spiritual harmony comes from Nature, from the ebb and flow of life.

At times I have envied those who 'believe' because they seem to have a 'support mechanisim' that I lack, yet I would not be the person I am if I channelled my all into one belief system. A lack of rigidity in worship is a flow on effect that allows, for me, greater acceptance of other's beliefs.

The huge fuss over the cartoons, and death threats that ensued are to me mirrored in the ruckus over the Da Vinci Code. Mirrors do not always reflect exact proportions, but the general shape is there.

[TheWagner]

That is a big "no" for me. I've never seen any indication of any higher powers, other than a desperate wish by people to think that there must be some kind of "meaning" or something like that. Why people need that (or any beliefs), I cannot fathom. Knowledge and logic are the keys to enlightenment, not "faith."

When we die, we'll just cease to be. So, quit fussing, and quit ruining the planet in the name of all of this craziness, and try to make the brief existences that we do have something less Hobbesian than it is now.

[Lidless]

Totally with TheWagner.

When we die, we'll just cease to be.

That's the problem. Our brains have sufficiently developed sufficient self-consciousness that humans can contemplate their own non-existence, and most cannot comprehend it, even though each of us did not exist for the last 15 billion years (or 6,000 years as some would have you believe). Thus heaven (and hell). I for one do not need a supernatural carrot and stick to try and do the right thing by my fellow man/woman. I'm sure most of the religious people here don't need it either, btw.

[JewelSong]

I for one do not need a supernatural carrot and stick to try and do the right thing by my fellow man/woman. I'm sure most of the religious people here don't need it either, btw.

I certainly don't consider my belief in the Divine any kind of "carrot and stick." I don't think much about the after-life, to be honest. I am sure that whatever it is will be nothing like anything I can grasp right now. I don't worry about heaven or hell or purgatory or even nothingness. It's beyond my scope...I leave it to the Eternal "I Am" that is God.

What I do is to try to follow the teachings of a certain carpenter from Nazareth, because I think he came the closest to being able to tell us how to live and why. By doing so, we can bring a little bit of "heaven" here to earth And if we do that, we will have done the best we can do.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Totally with TheWagner.

When we die, we'll just cease to be.

That's the problem. Our brains have sufficiently developed sufficient self-consciousness that humans can contemplate their own non-existence, and most cannot comprehend it, even though each of us did not exist for the last 15 billion years (or 6,00 years as some would have you believe). Thus heaven (and hell). I for one do not need a supernatural carrot and stick to try and do the right thing by my fellow man/woman. I'm sure most of the religious people here don't need it either, btw.

Just a gentle reminder that there is a fine line between expressing one's own views (which is not just acceptable but desireable) and insulting others for their views (which is not acceptable). I'm not saying you crossed that line, Lidless, but I just want to remind people of what a fine line it is.

[Erunáme]

Hmmm...I thought Wagner's post could be seen as insulting, not Lidless's. I suppose that rule about a poster's history of previous hostility is being applied here.

[Lidless]

V-man,

I am fully aware of the fine line, hence the last sentence. If I have offended any individual, my apologies - it was not the intention.

My comment is not a disparaging one. I am saying that in many cases society at large, particularly in the past, has been successfully controlled through religion (the idea that God watched everything, and the need to do certain things and not to do other things was a way of guaranteeing eternal life after death). I specifically posted that I did not think that applied to the posters here. They are more sophisticated than people of the Middle Ages, methinks.

Most successful societies developed because they were internally socially policed and pulled as one.

[TheEllipticalDisillusion]

That's the problem. Our brains have sufficiently developed sufficient self-consciousness that humans can contemplate their own non-existence, and most cannot comprehend it, even though each of us did not exist for the last 15 billion years (or 6,00 years as some would have you believe). Thus heaven (and hell).

Although, regardless of what our minds can contemplate or imagine, reality is not affected. We can imagine hell, heaven, valhalla, et cetera until we turn blue in the head, but reality is always going to be reality.

As for the poll, I don't concern myself with higher beings. The unknown is the unknown, and no amount of reading or discussing will ever get me closer to understand it. I see no practical use for gods, but I do enjoy mythology and all its quirks.

[JewelSong]

I specifically posted that I did not think that applied to the posters here. They are more sophisticated than people of the Middle Ages, methinks.

Sophisticated? You think?

*preens*

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Hmmm...I thought Wagner's post could be seen as insulting, not Lidless's. I suppose that rule about a poster's history of previous hostility is being applied here.

Eru, I thought I made it sufficiently clear that I wasn't saying that Lidless' post crossed the line. I don't think that TheWagner's post did either. My post was prophylactic rather then accusatory. What I don't want to see is a bunch of people jumping on the anti-religious bandwagon and it spiralling out of control.

And after our long phone conversation the other day, I think that Liddy and I are good. No hostility here.

Although, regardless of what our minds can contemplate or imagine, reality is not affected. We can imagine hell, heaven, valhalla, et cetera until we turn blue in the head, but reality is always going to be reality.

Ah, TED, that could be the subject of a whole other discussion. What is reality, and does it really differ from what our minds can contemplate or imagine.

[anthriel]

I for one do not need a supernatural carrot and stick to try and do the right thing by my fellow man/woman. I'm sure most of the religious people here don't need it either, btw.

I certainly don't consider my belief in the Divine any kind of "carrot and stick." I don't think much about the after-life, to be honest. I am sure that whatever it is will be nothing like anything I can grasp right now. I don't worry about heaven or hell or purgatory or even nothingness. It's beyond my scope...I leave it to the Eternal "I Am" that is God.

What I do is to try to follow the teachings of a certain carpenter from Nazareth, because I think he came the closest to being able to tell us how to live and why. By doing so, we can bring a little bit of "heaven" here to earth And if we do that, we will have done the best we can do.

Geez, Jewel, I don't think I have EVER seen someone write about this subject before who so CLEARLY reflects my own thoughts. I may just print this out, and put in on my fridge.

Wagner... that post DID seem a bit black and white, where you are pretty darned sure that you are completely right, and the rest of us "desperate" people "fussing" about "faith" are certainly wrong. Is there any room in your worldviews for accepting the idea that you may not be absolutely 100% correct about such things?