[topic regretted] (was Jews against anti-Christian ...)

[Whistler]

Jn, hardly a day goes by when I don't read something similar, or worse.

[Sister Magpie]

I was thinking, actually and pretty specifically, about a passage in Elie Wiesel's Night where the Jews first read that they have to wear a yellow star. Weisel relates his father saying, "Oh well, you don't die from wearing a yellow star." And Weisel answers, in retrospect, forty years later, "Of what then do you die?"

I am not so interested about the point where active persecution begins because by then it really it too late. If you haven't done something about it by then, you're really lost.

What interests me is the point at which our antennae should go up and we should say, "Stop. These deeds betray a mentality that is dangerous. Now we have to start fighting back, before it's too late."

But what's the mentality there? I mean, okay, you've got a public library. It's not got anything to do with any church, inside it's allowed to carry religious texts. It wants to put up a specifically religious display. Now, I've got no problem--and I don't actually know if anyone did have a problem. It may be that people just are aware now in ways they weren't before that hey, is this like we're declaring the library something it isn't by having a big old arrangement on the lawn?

Now, removing the people--I'd honestly love to hear about the thought behind that because it sounds ridiculous, but in a silly way, not a scary way, because the fact remains they're still putting up a display to invoke Jesus' birth in the manger, right? So it seems like the idea here is compromise, not marking anyone out by having them wear stars, or not letting them express themselves.

This is not to say that I don't see something ridiculous in the hyper-sensitivity, and I see no reason that Christianity shouldn't happily present itself as itself with no apology at Christmas. But isn't it natural that as people become more aware of trying to acknowledge that everyone isn't Christian it's going to sometimes result in a pulling back or having second thoughts about something like this?

It just seems like, as usual in the US, we feel the need to swing back and forth between extremes. So you've got a people-less manger on one side, and on the other side people acting like it's ludicrous to even consider not having children say we're "one nation under God" every morning because if they don't make that statement every day it's like saying God doesn't exist and insulting Christians. And unfortunately every person who's on the extreme end is going to collect reasons for feeling they're wronged and oppressed even when they're not affected by the thing at all.

I have a friend who writes for educational publishers and she seems to have to go back and forth between these two extremes all the time, because apparently the states that dominate their regions are California and Texas. So California's always wanting diversity and a re-writing of history to suit modern day ideas, and Texas is always trying to stamp out anything they feel is unacceptable in Christianity. That seems to generally be how we do things in the US.

-m

[Jnyusa]

[removed]

[Sister Magpie]

It speaks to me of equivocation and capitulation, which is something different from tolerance and compromise in my thinking. It points to a particular mentality which has no 'center,' no first principle other than expedience. And that mentality - the mentality of expedience - alarms me when I see it .

Ah--well I definitely see your point there. I do agree that it should be one or the other, and that gutting the point of the display to take away the heart of it is just depressing, like putting something empty up on the front lawn.

-m

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I see what you are saying, Jn, and I tend to agree with you. But I don't think the analogy to wearing the yellow star is a good one. I'm sorry, but I don't see that type of thing as "persecution of Christians" in the way that making Jews where yellow stars was persecution of Jews. Rather, I see it as a symptom of the centerlessness that plagues our society. Definitely a big problem, but not the problem that you (and I think Whistler as well) have identified.

Someone (I don't remember who) was skeptical of the assertion that Christians don't have a public voice in America. Certainly high profile Christians have a very loud public voice, from President Bush to the high profile televangelists, to the newly elected members of the Kansas school board. But do these people really speak for the majority of Christians? I have an opinion on the subject but it is neither fully formed nor based on sufficient experience or perception. I'd be interested to know what other folks, both Christians and others, think about the question.

[Jnyusa]

[removed]

[Sister Magpie]

Someone (I don't remember who) was skeptical of the assertion that Christians don't have a public voice in America. Certainly high profile Christians have a very loud public voice, from President Bush to the high profile televangelists, to the newly elected members of the Kansas school board. But do these people really speak for the majority of Christians? I have an opinion on the subject but it is neither fully formed nor based on sufficient experience or perception. I'd be interested to know what other folks, both Christians and others, think about the question.

That was me. And I think that there are many Christians who are indeed struggling to be heard by both Christians and non-Christians alike. And unfortunately sometimes they're labeled "un-Christian" for not conforming to whatever someone else feels they're supposed to think. Voting a certain way or thinking a certain way on whatever modern political question comes up is not what makes one Christian, imo. Similarly, I don't think doing something heinous makes one not a Christian either--of course I don't think setting someone on fire is at all in keeping with what Jesus taught, but it's still something a Christian could do. What unites people under the name of Christian seems to me to be a belief in the divinity of Christ and his redemption of mankind, and that's it.

ETA: I'm deleting this part because it wasn't really on topic anyway.

-m

[Ethel]

Actually, this sounds like classic bureaucratic thinking to me. "Sure, let's have a Nativity scene. But wait, that might offend non-Christians and they might sue. So - I know! - let's just leave out the human figures!"

The result: a compromise that pleases no one and is the height of absurdity.

The divine sylthian once told a story about her boss that reminds me of this - nothing to do with Christianity but illustrative of the bureaucratic mental process. The place where she works bought a defibrillator for emergency use. But syl's boss was worried that someone might steal it... so he locked it in a cupboard and didn't tell anyone where it was. Eventually a day came that someone had a heart attack and, sure enough, everyone knew there was a defibrillator but no one knew where it was.

[Jnyusa]

[removed]

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yes, that is it exactly. Unfortunately, stupidity can sometimes be just as dangerous as malice.

ETA: One thing that I don't want to see happen is have this thread osgiliate into a political discussion about President Bush. I know that some here are supporters of the president and others are not. Let's leave it at that, and not open an additional can of worms. Of course I realize this is a case of me opening the barn door and then politely asking everyone else to make sure the animals don't escape, but there you have it.

[Whistler]

Oh, let's let the animals escape. With no holy family to look at, it's boring in the barn.

[vison]

Deleted.

I won't be drawn in!

[Teremia]

Shoot, I missed vison being drawn in!



By the way, Voronwë, the President has got to be mentionable in a thread that contains claims that Christians are being persecuted. Since he does, you know, hold the top position of power in the country.



On that other barn: I'd bet my last fifty cents it wasn't the town's organized gangs of atheists that insisted the people be taken out of the manger! Presumably that was some Christian with cold feet. It's comical, but I can't find it scary.

[Whistler]

Possibly, Teremia. Of all the powers on earth, one of the strongest is cowardice.

Of course, that same cowardice would gladly stand aside in the face of real evil, so the thought is not so comforting.

[Cerin]

Voting a certain way or thinking a certain way on whatever modern political question comes up is not what makes one Christian, imo. <snip> What unites people under the name of Christian seems to me to be a belief in the divinity of Christ and his redemption of mankind, and that's it.

I think this is a very important point and can't be repeated too often. To be Christian is not to espouse any particular political viewpoint. It just happens that a particular segment of the Christian community -- those with a conservative agenda -- began organizing politically a couple of decades ago and have consequently accrued an enormous amount of political power, so this is what people identify politically as 'Christian'.

[JewelSong]

Well, I figure the nativity scene with just the animals is actually an Advent scene, see? Like, Mary and Joseph haven't gotten there yet and the Babe hasn't been born and the animals are all....kind of waiting patiently.

The Militant Christian Right is not Christian, IMNSHO. They have stolen my religion and made a mockery of what I believe and twisted Jesus' words until they are unrecognizable.

Jesus weeps.

[Whistler]

The militant Christian right?

Ah, then! That would be me, I suspect.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Sorry, Whist, but I have to disagree with you. Yes, you are a conservative (read right-wing if you wish), fundamentalist Christian, but you are not militant. You don't try to push your views on other people, and you are unfailingly respectful. That is not militant. One of the things that I greatly value about developing a friendship with you is that it has helped me see more clearly my prejudices about people labeled in a certain way. Very few people match the image painted by a stereotype.

[Primula Baggins]

It is painful to be regarded as "less of a Christian" because of one's political beliefs. This is true for Christians at all points along the political spectrum.

[JewelSong]

Clarification!

I know plenty of conservative and/or born-again Christians whose opinions and beliefs I highly respect - although they may have a different take on things than I do. My brother is one.

When I said "Militant Christian Right" I did NOT mean conservative Christians, or born-again Christians, or Republicans as a group, or people or might have even (*gasp*) voted for George Bush. Or Whistler.

I meant "militant" as in Pat Robertson who publically blames feminists and Jews for 9/11. As in that so-called "church" that pickets the funerals of young men who have died of AIDS with signs that say "God hates fags." As in people who preach hate and justify violence in the name of Jesus.

These people SAY they are Christian but they sully the word.