Sam as Frodo's Garner

[TolkienJRR]

Question on Sam as Frodo's garner. Was he paid for this service? did he do it for free? how did it come about?





thanks.

[elengil]

Given that the Shire was rather based on rural English villages of the time, I think it almost certain that not only was he paid, but that it seems to have been a sort of a generational job - Sam would have some day taken over for "his old Gaffer" and continued the service.

Even before the Hobbit, Bilbo seems to have been rather well-off and in the category of a gentleman, given the size of his 'estate', which Frodo being his heir would have been too. So Sam was his employee, no matter how friendly they were, Sam worked for Frodo and was of a distinctly lower class.

(Edit to add: Sam even calls him Master Frodo)

I will point out that being his employee did not diminish the love Sam felt for Frodo in the slightest.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Given that the Shire was rather based on rural English villages of the time, I think it almost certain that not only was he paid, but that it seems to have been a sort of a generational job - Sam would have some day taken over for "his old Gaffer" and continued the service.

Yes, the tradition goes back to Sam's great-great grandfather, Holman the Greenhanded, who started the tradition in Tighfield, which was the Gamgee's home before they came to Hobbiton. It was Holman's grandson, his namesake Holman Greenhand, was the first gardener for Bilbo at Bag End, and then Hamfast (the Gaffer), his nephew, took over for him. It was Holman Greenhand's description of Bilbo that helped convince Gandalf that Bilbo was the right person to accompany Thorin on the Quest of Erebor.

[TolkienJRR]

Thanks for the great information and clarifications. Great forum.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

As for the question of how Sam (and his father and the other gardeners in his family) were paid, I don't think that Tolkien ever made that clear, or if he did, I don't recall it. The only specific reference to money that I can think of was the sale of Bill the Pony by Bill Ferny for 12 silver pennies, which was three times his "worth" at the time (though of course Bill the Pony turned to be of incalculable worth), and while that was in Bree, not the Shire, and Butterman actually paid the price himself (and also reimbursed Merry for the loss of his ponies), it is noted that Frodo wondered whether he could afford it, suggesting that he brought some money with him, though not much. It is an interesting question to consider, though I don't know that a proper answer is possible.

[Inanna]

Interesting! I never noticed the lack of money in the book before this.

[scirocco]

Given that the Shire was rather based on rural English villages of the time, I think it almost certain that not only was he paid, but that it seems to have been a sort of a generational job - Sam would have some day taken over for "his old Gaffer" and continued the service.

Based on England in the late 1800s, yes, certainly the “Gardner” job would have been paid. But not well paid - labouring gardeners of that era were among the poorest workers. You had to be landscaping whole estates like Capability Brown to get well off.

But kitchen gardeners were often allowed to sell excess produce from the gardens they tended at the local market, which would have brought in a few pennies. And they wouldn’t be going hungry.

Also, accomodation was often provided or subsidised. The Gardners probably didn’t own their hole in Bagshot Row. Pure speculation, but the Bagginses might have owned it and rented it out cheaply or for free to the Gaffer

[elengil]

Also, accomodation was often provided or subsidised. The Gardners probably didn’t own their hole in Bagshot Row. Pure speculation, but the Bagginses might have owned it and rented it out cheaply or for free to the Gaffer

Either I read it once, or I have just assumed it, that Bagshot Row was like (nicer) tenant housing, owned by BagEnd and rented out to those who likely worked at the estate. Now I will have to figure out if I really read that somewhere...

[Frelga]

Tolkien really just glossed over the economics of the Middle-earth. Shire appears to have no manufacturing and minimal trade, no cities of any size, no financial institutions. Their lifestyle is of a countryside that in real world could only exist (to the extent that it ever did) thanks to its relationship with the city and global trade.

By contrast I'm reminded of a critic who commented on Dumas that he always knew to a penny how much his characters had in their pocket.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Shire appears to have no manufacturing and minimal trade, no cities of any size, no financial institutions.

[Gandalf voice]The Shire. [/Gandalf voice]

I'm reminded of G.R.R. Martin complaining that Tolkien does not say what Aragorn's tax policy would be in his rule of Gondor. To that I say, "Thank goodness!"

[Frelga]

Shire! Baggins!

[Faramond]

I don't like being reminded of the absurdity of The Shire's economics.

I think Aragorn would have cut capital gains taxes.

[Frelga]

Do we even know if Gondor had a stock market at any point in its history?

[elengil]

Do we even know if Gondor had a stock market at any point in its history?

Oh sure, you need to sell your cows somewhere!

[Inanna]

They had cows? I only saw fancy horses.

Reminds me of Tiffany Aching’s review of a romance book - There were no sheep in it anywhere! Who was taking care of them?

[Maria]

They had cows? I only saw fancy horses.

I'm certain I saw a hobbit with a cow in one of the movies. Quick googling suggests it was this pic, but I can't be certain:

cow hobbit.jpg (331.7 KiB) Viewed 13086 times

[Jude]

I'm pretty sure I remember one of the hobbits trying to pull a cow that didn't want to move - but Frelga was asking about Gondor...

[elengil]

Are we otherwise suggesting Gondor was vegetarian?

[Inanna]

Are we otherwise suggesting Gondor was vegetarian?

Huh?

[scirocco]

The smooth talking salesman at the hobbit "stock" market would always be spinning you a line about how the cow you were about to buy was as hardy and reliable as the Kine of Araw and how her horns would be fit for a king's music.