2020 Election: Predictions, Results and Reactions

[elengil]

On the one hand I agree that at the moment of firing the shot, the police had ample justification. A crowd - even without guns - can be a very dangerous thing.

However, I also think the police (broadly) in not doing what they should have done to stop the entire thing from getting to the point it got are also somewhat responsible for the situation escalating to the point where the shot had to be fired.

The entire crowd should never have been allowed to get even one step up the capital building. They should have been held at bay by whatever riot control measures were deemed necessary when they were engaged in making sure peaceful protestors were gassed and shot at by "less" lethal rounds.

The police had no problem pushing old men back and cracking their heads, or mercilessly beating a Navy vet who dared try to actually just speak to them, or deliberately spraying a child in the face, or deliberately targeting journalists and those acting as medics.

If the force as a whole had taken the threat seriously and committed to restraining it, they could have. They chose not to. They chose to have so few people on site that they couldn't restrain the crowd, and some didn't even want to restrain the crowd. They said "please" and tried negotiating. They let some run rampant and only blocked off certain doorways.

So yes, at the time she was shot that was an absolutely justified shooting. But it never, ever should have been allowed to escalate to that point.

[Sunsilver]

ITA, elegil!

Yes, the shooting was justified, as the members of Congress were still being evacuated through the same hallway the protesters were about to get access to. And has been show by statements from some of the rioters, it would NOT have gone well if they'd met up!

[Frelga]

It is now clear that actions of Capitol Police were only a tiny piece of the puzzle. They were sent in tiny numbers, without riot gear, and denied backup for hours.

I'm glad that it didn't turn into the massacre of the protesters. But that less lethal means of crowd control were not deployed from the very start is pretty clearly a proof of conspiracy involving administration and possibly some Republican lawmakers. It was not a choice of the responders on the scene.


PS From the "unclear what it means but it looks bad" desk.

Army now acknowledges the brother of Michael Flynn was a part of Army response to Capitol riot

[yovargas]

Given the mob was screaming and breaking doors and busting windows, how was a security officer to know she didn't have a weapon?

I'm sure many police officers will be glad to hear that liberals are actually okay with shooting people because "how was a security officer to know she didn't have a weapon?"

[Frelga]

Given the mob was screaming and breaking doors and busting windows, how was a security officer to know she didn't have a weapon?

I'm sure many police officers will be glad to hear that liberals are actually okay with shooting people because "how was a security officer to know she didn't have a weapon?"

"Breaking doors and windows to get at the people inside", is also an important point here.


Also, I don't think much of the tactic of picking a snippet of a comment by a single person in no position of influence and ascribing it to "liberals".

[elengil]

I'm sure many police officers will be glad to hear that liberals are actually okay with shooting people because "how was a security officer to know she didn't have a weapon?"

And conservatives are okay with breaking into gov. buildings to protest, and beating police who get in their way? Are we really going to start boiling political positions down to such singular, inane, sweeping statements?

[River]

Police shootings happen when police feel threatened. FFS, we've seen footage of cops plugging people in the back while running away. It's not hard to understand why the cop in the Capitol shot that woman in the chest as she surmounted a barricade during a riot in the Capitol building. We're lucky she was the only one. What's weird is how the cops in riot gear who were right behind her didn't do anything to stop her.

Does feeling threatened justify lethal force? Well, there's differences of opinion, as one can observe in the reactions to when police shoot people of color. Usually, the people justifying the shooting sound off about how "S/he should have just complied. We love cops!" and so on. Sometimes they wave around those thin blue line flags while saying it. Like some of the Capitol protesters were when they beat up the police. I guess my point is, Babbit's husband now has something in common with those who survive George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Michael Brown, and all the others who died unarmed at the hands of skittish police. And, of course, given that before entering the building, the rioters were actually attacking police with fire extinguishers, flags (with the thin blue line, no less), pepper spray, and the cops' own tazers the cop in the Capitol probably had more reason to be skittish than some. I still don't understand why the cops who were on Babbit's side of the barricade didn't grab her.

The better questions are 1) why cops shoot people when they feel threatened and 2) why the seat of the US government was so poorly defended that rioters broke in and disrupted Congress in the process of certifying the Presidential election. Also why the cops right ehind Babbit didn't move to stop her before she did the thing that got her plugged in the chest. To their credit, they did move fast to get her out of there while her comrades shot video.

[RoseMorninStar]

Given the mob was screaming and breaking doors and busting windows, how was a security officer to know she didn't have a weapon?

I'm sure many police officers will be glad to hear that liberals are actually okay with shooting people because "how was a security officer to know she didn't have a weapon?"

I do not appreciate being mischaracterized. First, I do not consider myself a liberal. Yes, I am liberal on social issues, conservative other issues. I am a big proponent of the environment. I have voted for all stripes of persons but in the last 15-20 years or so the 'conservative' Republican party has morphed into something I no longer recognize as the party of 'grown-ups'. Nixon, a Republican, established the EPA! I cannot imagine the Republican party of today backing environmental issues let alone initiating an agency for environmental protections. The Tea Party has changed the Republican party into something unrecognizable. It's a party of authoritarianism, racism, outright lies, and hate. It's divisive. The gun issue has gone far beyond anything reasonable I could have ever imagined when growing up and I grew up in a gun owning household. I (and my ideals) have not changed so much, the (Republican) party has.

I never said I was 'OK' with shooting, it was a horrible tragedy as was the death of Officer Brian Sicknick and that of Rosanne Boyland, the woman who was crushed and trampled by the mob. That said, I am not a person who would likely ever place myself in a situation where I would have to make such a call. Nor would I likely be part of a violent mob that would break, enter, and damage property and be calling for the deaths of people.

What it boils down to, and my point was, that what happened INSIDE the capitol went far beyond 'voicing an opinion' which she had every right to do. It was the job of the officer in question to protect the lives of those in his charge and, given the circumstances, the mob already inside of the building and literally moments away from spilling through the last barrier, I cannot judge him overly harshly. Once the mob would have breached those doors the deaths of those in his charge would have been on his hands. The mob was given far more warning than those in BLM rioters on the streets were. My harshest judgement is reserved for those who allowed such a thing to occur in the first place. I have little doubt it will be found that there was a negligent and intentional lack of security for just such a purpose and that is truly disgusting, in addition to inciting the crowd for such a purpose. I lay the deaths and injuries of that day at their feet.

[Frelga]

Let's also remember that while the officer didn't know whether that particular person had firearms, they did know that many in the mob had weapons.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Given the mob was screaming and breaking doors and busting windows, how was a security officer to know she didn't have a weapon?

I'm sure many police officers will be glad to hear that liberals are actually okay with shooting people because "how was a security officer to know she didn't have a weapon?"

I have to say, I find this comment really disheartening.

[N.E. Brigand]

Federal prosecutors appealed the decision by a magistrate judge in Tennessee to release one of the insurrectionists who was photographed carrying ziptie handcuffs in the Senate. The chief judge in D.C. stayed that decision, so he'll remain in custody for now. I don't have an opinion on whether or not he presents a current danger, but as several commentators have noted, the prosecutors' appeal gave us some new information: by their count, 139 police officers were injured during the Jan. 6 Capitol attack.

So far, only 12 people have been charged with assaulting police officers, so there are probably a whole lot of violent offenders from that day still out there.

Speaking of the danger that day, newly elected Representative Cori Bush of Missouri notes that one of the people who attacked the Capitol on Jan. 6 wrote on social media back in June (and she reported it at the time) that the St. Louis couple who brandished their guns at protesters passing their home "shoulda lit your ass up." She asks: what would have happened if he found her in the Capitol?

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As I noted in an earlier post, one way in which Donald Trump improperly, and perhaps illegally, attempted to interfere in the election was by having his Postmaster General, Louis DeJoy. Unfortunately DeJoy can only be fire by the boad of the USPS, which is in the control of Trump appointees (because McConnell prevented Obama from filling vacancies in 2015-2016). So I hope Merrick Garland will take a good hard look at DeJoy's actions.

Or maybe Biden should fire the board and let them sue. I think the public would support getting rid of the people who slowed down our mail.

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Some QAnon cultists have found a way to move the goalposts: borrowing from 1990s "sovereign citizen" arguments, they're claiming that the United States became a corporatoin in 1871, and therefore that any Constitutional amendment passed after that date is invalid, and therefore that the "real" inauguration will be held on March 4.

[Alatar]

I'm curious to hear Yov's thoughts on all this. I know we often talk about groupthink and echo chambers and this is a very left wing group.

Without any rancour or recrimination, I'd love to know what your thoughts on all this are Yov. Do you think it was a disorganised rabble who were like a dog chasing a car who never expects to catch it? Were they just making a point, fully expecting to get stopped and then found themselves in the middle of something out of control? Cause I can see that argument. For every armed militia guy who was planning for this on Q-Anon, I think there were 100 mostly innocent bystanders who were just there for a protest.

But even if all that is true, can you ignore it? Say it was just "high spirits" and a party that got out of hand? Genuinely curious.

[yovargas]

Without any rancour or recrimination, I'd love to know what your thoughts on all this are Yov. Do you think it was a disorganised rabble who were like a dog chasing a car who never expects to catch it? Were they just making a point, fully expecting to get stopped and then found themselves in the middle of something out of control? Cause I can see that argument. For every armed militia guy who was planning for this on Q-Anon, I think there were 100 mostly innocent bystanders who were just there for a protest.

I think it's been solidly, factually established that there were quite a few people in that mob that came very prepared, willing and intentioned to commit acts of terrorism, but that there was also a whole bunch of other people who were just a dumb rabble who got caught up in the mayhem and were no serious threat to anybody beyond the general shoving and smashing, and IMO calling those people terrorists is ridiculous. They committed a serious crime but someone smashing through a door shouldn't be shot for doing so.

But more importantly, I think it's very obvious that both the left and the right are very happily capable of cherry picking data and making rationalizations that best fit their preferred narratives, and then accusing the other side of doing what they're doing. The double standards being applied by both sides is utterly disgusting to me. I probably shouldn't even have posted here because I find it so appalling, but since you aren't American I wanted to give you a response.

[Maria]

They committed a serious crime but someone smashing through a door shouldn't be shot for doing so.

FYI... anyone who tries to smash through my front door WILL be shot, if I have time to get to a gun. Otherwise it'll be a heavy cast iron skillet to their skull, which will likely be just as lethal.

[Sunsilver]

Numerous rioters were heard saying - either in person or on social media - that they intended to hurt or kill Democratic politicians, or Republicans that weren't supporting Trump's 'victory'.

The crowd inside the building was chanting in unison "Hang Pence!"

If I were a Capitol police officer, charged with protecting members of the government, and a violent mob was trying to break through doors just feet away from said members, it would be MY DUTY to use force, even lethal force, to protect them.

A judge in Alabama refused to release one of the rioters, who happens to be an ATTORNEY, because the man said he was going to tear Pelosi to pieces:

[Sunsilver]

Yov, you live in Florida, a state that's well known for its very conservative leanings.

I wonder if you're maybe not seeing the whole picture of what happened at the Capitol because news sources favour the Conservative agenda?

I have no doubt at all the rioters would have killed at least several of the politicians if they'd been able to get their hands on them.

Did you see the photos of what went on in the government chambers before the members were evacuated? Secret service and security guards barricade the doors with furniture, and were crouched behind it with their guns drawn. I have no doubt they would have fired if anyone had breached the doors. It's fortunate that Babbitt was the only shot. It could have been SO much worse! And most certainly more police officers would likely have died, too. The police were very badly outnumbered, and once the rioters realized they were being shot at they likely would have turned on the police.

Of course, those responsible for letting things get to this stage have to be held accountable. It should never have happened.

[Alatar]

I probably shouldn't even have posted here because I find it so appalling, but since you aren't American I wanted to give you a response.

Thanks Yov

[RoseMorninStar]

They committed a serious crime but someone smashing through a door shouldn't be shot for doing so.

FYI... anyone who tries to smash through my front door WILL be shot, if I have time to get to a gun. Otherwise it'll be a heavy cast iron skillet to their skull, which will likely be just as lethal.

And this wasn't a front door, but an interior one. One that specifically lead to an area to those whom the mob was seeking. Numerous barriers were broken and warnings disregarded. They were given far more leeway than any of the protests we saw over the summer. Ashli happened to be the who chose to be at the forefront willing to breech the smashed window in the door.

Many of the people at the rally were likely there with the intent of having their voices heard, but what happened inside the Capitol went well beyond 'having their voices heard' (which was my original point). Those in the crowd have been fed lies and were acting out (radicalized) based on those lies. 'Alternative facts' are not facts but lies. It is a problem which shouldn't be whitewashed and is of serious national security concern. These lies have put people's lives at risk. This shouldn't be considered a 'liberal' or 'conservative' issue, this is something else. It wasn't based on fact, or the constitution, it was based on mass brainwashing. Those who radicalized these people and enabled and encouraged this should be held accountable.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Not just an interior door, but one that was very close to where a number of our nations leaders were in the process of being evacuated, with only this one officer between the murderous mob and them.

To compare the action of this officer to the actions of the numerous current or former law enforcement officers who have shot and killed unarmed black men and women who were doing nothing threatening in any way is extraordinarily ___________.

[N.E. Brigand]

I have no doubt at all the rioters would have killed at least several of the politicians if they'd been able to get their hands on them.

I don't think this is true of all of the rioters.

But I think one of the best comparisons is to lynchings, where most of the mob didn't do the actual hangings. They were just there for the spectacle. But we call it a "lynch mob" for a reason.