Colourblind Casting

For discussion of Amazon's new television show "The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power"
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Colourblind Casting

Post by Alatar »

So, the Internet is once again losing it's shit over black Elves and as usual its wildly divided into "Everyone who disagrees with me is racist" and "Everyone who disagrees with me isn't a real fan of LotR"

One comment I saw did strike me however. It was something to the effect of "Chinese and Japanese are allowed to have their own culture, why can't Europeans". Its a fair point. In Tolkien's legendarium the darker skinned races live in the southern regions. Now, granted, that does suggest "Only POC characters are Easterlings and Harad aka Bad Guys"! But in a Second Age story there's an opportunity to rectify that. Show us the Blue Wizards and a highly evolved Eastern Culture. Show how the Black Numenoreans (White Bad Guys), currupted the peaceful Haradrim by stirring up hatred. As another person said, why would Dwarves who live underground develop dark skin?

Anyway, not very thought out, just a conversation starter. Lets hope at least here we can discuss both sides of the conversation without name calling! :)

*FWIW, it doesn't bother me either way, but I feel people should be entitled to have an opinion without being called Racist.
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by elengil »

So...

Culture is not confined to skin color. Europeans can have their own culture and be a diverse group of ethnicities at the same time. (though to that point, why is an American company making a British book, if you (not *you* just... one) want to harp on cultural sensitivity.)

The Chinese and Japanese, like most people, have their own issues (both historically and currently) with regard to ethnicity and race.

I do think that when Americans talk about diversity we do see very much in Black and White, and ignore that there are Asians - so this will get praised for having diversity meaning Black actors, while decidedly not meaning Native or Aboriginal peoples or Pacific Islanders or Chinese or Indian or anything else remotely not White or Black, which is its own set of problems.

It is so tiring when people will gleefully accept every non-logical and non-realistic explanation for everything until it comes to race and then suddenly they want genetic evolutionary bases for it. Like, maybe that's how Aulë made them because he made them out of the earth and the earth has some dark materials in it.
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by Alatar »

I guess the point being made is that Tolkien, being a stuffy English man, created his world with a specific worldview that matched his preferences and experiences. While he was not "Racist" per se, he was very much of his time and Middle-earth reflects that. I think its pretty safe to assume that Tolkien never envisioned Black Elves or Dwarves. Lets pretend for a moment that assumption is fact. Should the producers alter his world to fit a modern sensibility?
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by elengil »

Alatar wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:12 pm I guess the point being made is that Tolkien, being a stuffy English man, created his world with a specific worldview that matched his preferences and experiences. While he was not "Racist" per se, he was very much of his time and Middle-earth reflects that. I think its pretty safe to assume that Tolkien never envisioned Black Elves or Dwarves. Lets pretend for a moment that assumption is fact. Should the producers alter his world to fit a modern sensibility?
IF we had sufficient representation of basic reality as a baseline in media to begin with, then I would say it would be perfectly fine to stick to a more "stuffy Englishman" aesthetic for this.

But we don't.

Much as some people would like to pretend we can look at each instance on its own merits and ignore the broader context and history, the fact is we can't. There is a context here, there is a history, and because "those of stuffy European descent" in the US have long decided that other colors of people don't exist, or don't exist as heroes or protagonists or just as positive roles in general, then yes, it means that there needs to be more representation across the board regardless of the source material.

I'm gonna say white people have shot themselves in the foot on this one themselves. We (culturally) have ignored PoC plenty in source materials when it suits us, even when they are explicitly there, it's time to include them even when they aren't explicitly stated to be there, or arguably are even explicitly excluded.
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I am completely fine with diverse casting for adaptations of Tolkien's work; I think it is great. For me, it is one of the most best aspects of the new show. Unfortunately, after reading the Vanity Fair article more carefully, I almost certainly won't be watching the show.
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by Anduril »

Alatar wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:12 pm Should the producers alter his world to fit a modern sensibility?
I mean it already happened ages ago with the live action movies, but



I get that they have every right to do what they want, they're in control. It will never be or replace the real thing, it's an adaptation. They want to show "non-white" characters positively, getting their due in a Middle-earth adaptation, sure. But the opportunity to do so without going against lore was already there. The Second Age setting practically screams it. You already said how in the first post. Then do the rights issues with the appendices mean they can't touch the Blue wizards? That still leaves Númenor.

In any case the casting of non-humans just feels like a shortcut because they couldn't be bothered to put in the real work this would need. A nuanced and sensitive layered portrayal of such humans. Instead of highlighting and drawing out what was already there, they look at things and see what they can "fix" and just cover it up with their own designs, most likely obscuring what could have been revealed to wider audiences. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Then there's the mental gymnastics of those trying to justify it from the various texts, like with hobbits not all looking "white". It's up to people to like or dislike or accept or reject anything they're offered, but don't misrepresent.

Then there's the people dismissing others' misgivings and labeling them. Fans in general should disavow racism etc, we don't need people like that among us, but don't lump us all together and dont throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I get that people want and get different things out of the setting. A lot of people just want to see the author's creation translated into a different medium and the author shown the respect he's due for its creation. Naturally his creation reflects his own views and experiences, people don't necessarily have to identify or agree with them, but it was made with love not hate. He did not set out to offend or cause problems so why be offended? So this is why some can be protective of the author's vision, they feel others who would lessen it in some way are unnecessarily antagonistic and coming in bad faith.

This is all in context of the TV medium, mind. If this was a stage show (or written for the stage then filmed) then it matters less or rather doesn't really matter, because it's theater. It just works that way. But movies and TV are like etching in stone.
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Re: Vanity Fair article on Amazon's Lord of the Rings series

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

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Re: Vanity Fair article on Amazon's Lord of the Rings series

Post by kzer_za »

I have to point out that all the Hollywood Reporter article is doing is recycling quotes rom the Vanity Fair article and other public information. It's just content farming with a clickbait headline.
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Re: Vanity Fair article on Amazon's Lord of the Rings series

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yup. But it is still telling that they chose that headline.
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by narya »

I grew up in a multiracial family. I live in a multiracial urban area, where Euro-Americans are a minority. When I walk into a room and it's full of whites only, it feels weird to me. I suppose it would be different if I lived in a place in the Midwest that had only whites to select from, but here, in the Bay Area, a dead white group is a self selecting group, whether they are conscious of it or not. A multiracial cast seems "normal" to me. This is a fantasy after all, and I'd like my fantasy to be my kind of normal. Except for the ears, of course.
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by kzer_za »

Well this is a very touchy subject and I'll wade into it. The analogy sometimes made is that the show Avatar is a fantasy world based on Asia and there are no white characters, so why not set similar standards for LotR based on Europe? This makes a degree of sense but on the other hand, some would point out that medieval Europe was not monochromatically white, which is true. On the other other hand how widespread nonwhite minorities were especially outside Southern Europe is debatable, they would be mostly lighter-skinned by our standards, and it would not be the integrated melting pot that America is at least aspirationally (people like medievalPoc who argue black people would be a common sight throughout medieval Europe have some good points but are overplaying their conclusions with the evidence, IMO).

But setting historical debates aside here's another way to look at it: modifying the story for a modern audience and a different medium is something every adaptation does. Jackson did it too, such as making Arwen and to a lesser degree the other females more important, Aragorn more conflicted, or downplaying the element of social class in Frodo and Sam's relationship. (You can argue correctly that some adaptive changes are because of the film medium, not "modern concerns", but diverse casting is also prompted by the medium - in the book a character's ethnicity is mostly in the background and easily fades away unless you explicitly make it important to the plot, on film you always see it).

But there are definite limits to what you can change. What constitutes an acceptable fudging of the source and what violates the spirit of it? Well, that has to be treated on a case-by-case basis (Aragorn was fine IMO, Denethor was not). Most people are ok with downplaying the master-servant dynamics between Frodo and Sam because that is just one aspect that does not define a very rich relationship, for example. And I would say that a character's ethnicity is a pretty minor concern that will not make a big difference in fidelity.

If you're going to say it's necessary for historical accuracy, well all sorts of things in the Jackson films aren't historically accurate or realistic. A military historian went through Jackson's Pelennor and Helms Deep and found all sorts of anachronisms and inaccuracies. Then are here are things like the Argonath being implausibly big or the beacon setup not actually making sense. A lot of people (myself included) are ok with this kind of thing because they work cinematically, or at least a large portion of them do. Now obviously this does not mean that just anything goes in not following history; verisimilitude is important. But again I would group making the cast more diverse under "minor fudge."

My personal preference would actually not be to just do diversity anywhere. I would do it as broadly as can be justified within the text itself or at least plausibly argued from it, which means probably more diverse than Jackson. Gondor, for example, is a multi-ethnic kingdom, has presumably intermarried with Harad over the centuries, and has regions (including Beregond's home) described as "swarthy." You could also give a very sympathetic treatment of Harad as Alatar said. Perhaps go for a mixed "Mediterranean" look for Númenor which could include North African and Arab actors. However a more generalized approach to diversity, while not what I would ideally do, is not that big a deal or something I'm going to get upset about. There are much better reasons to worry about the show.

I agree that not everyone who expresses reservations about this aspect is racist and there are some who are too dismissive in that regard. However, a lot of people online, especially those who complain most loudly about it, are.
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by Smaug's voice »

Shakespeare predates Tolkien by nearly 400 years and nearly all of his works were written with a predominantly white European cast in mind. Skip to today, multiracial stage productions of Shakespeare are much the norm and no one bats an eye. Some are even very acclaimed. Same with other "white" works, such as how we got three English adaptations these past two years ("Sir Gawain and the Green Knight", "David Copperfield", "Macbeth") where the traditionally white protagonists in each of them were played by actors of different ethnicities. And they were all critically praised.

I don't see how the same cannot happen with Tolkien. For a work of literature to stay timeless over the ages, it needs to be attuned to the ethics of each time period. Or else it risks falling into irrelevance. Of course in parts of Tolkien's stories where the characters' race and ethnicity do have a thematic function to serve then it's best to stay faithful to that. But otherwise, the only thing that matters to me is that the thematic core of Tolkien's story remains. A multiracial Middle-earth feels more believable to me from a world-building perspective. Buzzcut hairstyles on the other hand...
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by Sunsilver »

I still remember some of the people on TORC losing it over Gandalf being played by a gay actor! Today, Sir Ian is probably one of the most loved and respected members of the original cast!
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Smaug's voice wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:06 pm Shakespeare predates Tolkien by nearly 400 years and nearly all of his works were written with a predominantly white European cast in mind. Skip to today, multiracial stage productions of Shakespeare are much the norm and no one bats an eye. Some are even very acclaimed. Same with other "white" works, such as how we got three English adaptations these past two years ("Sir Gawain and the Green Knight", "David Copperfield", "Macbeth") where the traditionally white protagonists in each of them were played by actors of different ethnicities. And they were all critically praised.

I don't see how the same cannot happen with Tolkien. For a work of literature to stay timeless over the ages, it needs to be attuned to the ethics of each time period. Or else it risks falling into irrelevance. Of course in parts of Tolkien's stories where the characters' race and ethnicity do have a thematic function to serve then it's best to stay faithful to that. But otherwise, the only thing that matters to me is that the thematic core of Tolkien's story remains. A multiracial Middle-earth feels more believable to me from a world-building perspective. Buzzcut hairstyles on the other hand...
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by kzer_za »

Yes, good point on Shakespeare (I loved the new Macbeth with Denzel by the way).
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by Anduril »

Well, Middle-earth, Arda or however you call it is already multicultural or multi-ethnic or multiracial or however you call it from the Men alone. It's just the trademark fantasy races, the Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits getting that makeover that bothers me.

Because it was unnecessary due to the above. Not all humans in Middle-earth are "white" of course, not all lands and cultures are akin to European, we know this. As has been said, the Second Age setting lends itself to stories showing the struggles of people who don't look "white"/European, because in this period they're the victims of the people who do look that way. So if they wanted to show "representation" or "diversity", why not just follow the existing lore?

It also feels off because Tolkien's Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits are essentially European in inspiration, in spirit, and in appearance, and this was an essential part of the whole worldbuilding process, its origins, etc. It's like messing with the very DNA, the building blocks behind it all. Some defending the show's choices try to downplay if not deny this, as if the context of European culture and myths could be taken out of the equation, with the same results.

The arguments I've seen in favor of having some of them not look "white" are all essentially arguing from silence, sometimes in double negatives. As in he didn't say all Elves had white skin = looked "white", he might have said it for the Noldor but the others are fair game. Or that he didn't say Elves and Dwarves "of color" didn't exist. Then followed by assumptions upon assumptions, like that those characters might be from the southern regions.

Well to me, you have to look at the scales, how many times do Elves (and half Elven) get their skin tone mentioned and it's almost always white or pale? Except Fëanor's wife who is ruddy. And Elves and Numenoreans having pale or paler skin is contrasted to non-Numenoreans and Orcs having different skin. If Dwarves never get their skin tone mentioned then most likely it's not notable enough to distinguish them from generic western Men, let alone Elves.

Shakespeare etc. getting out-of-the-box casting is different because this is an adaptation of a body of work with a ton of worldbuilding, and it's making statements about the worldbuilding, affecting it. And the worldbuilding is a big part of what we love about these writings. You don't need to be white, European to appreciate them. The snipes in the Vanity Fair article just rub me the wrong way. As if Asians, Latinos, black people etc. can't possibly have a problem with the changes. I'm an Asian who's lived in Asia for all my life. Was Tolkien not for me until now? Was he not for everyone already?

And I'm sorry I have to bring this up, but their choices can't help but be seen as part of the cultural, political environment today, just as the books were a product of their time and the author's place like every other book really. But while I can appreciate the historical and cultural context behind the books, I don't care about current American politics, the culture wars they fuel or whatever. I have enough on my plate. The books, the world should be an escape and they're making it less of one.

I get that they have the full power to do this. It's their right. I can't agree however that it's not inconsistent with the books or that it was completely necessary, that it was the only way. There was a way with existing lore to get what they want, and it seems they're passing it by.
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by Alatar »

Well said Anduril. There's just better ways to be diverse.
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Anduril wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:08 pm Well, Middle-earth, Arda or however you call it is already multicultural or multi-ethnic or multiracial or however you call it from the Men alone. It's just the trademark fantasy races, the Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits getting that makeover that bothers me.
The problem with that argument is that other "races" -- particularly the Elves -- are meant to represent different aspects of humankind, not some kind of "trademark fantasy races". As Tolkien wrote in his famous letter to Milton Waldman, "his “‘elves’ are only a representation or an apprehension of a part of human nature" and his letter to Naomi MItchison, "I should say that they represent really Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties." So if you just make Men "diverse" and make Elves all white, what that is saying is that only White men are "Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties." I'm happy to have a more diverse group people represent all of the different aspects of Mankind that Tolkien was representing.
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by Smaug's voice »

Yes they could have used the pre-existing lore, but I'd still say that it's not as positive a scope as it should be. Showing the corruption of Harad still plays into the fact that these cultures eventually would go on to be swayed under Sauron's sovereign and that the white Western kingdoms basically save the day through this intervention. Granted, the show might not go there at all (although I think its hard to imagine a commercial series not playing fanservice by referencing Peter Jackson's version of the same) but that still serves as a pretty small part of Tolkien's legendarium. If Harad's part was to be expanded, or some of the characters from there need to be more developed and complex then that'd still require a deviations from the text. But yes, that certainly could have been another route that could have been taken.

And Voronwë makes a perfect point about how keeping Elves as just white might send the wrong implication. It's fine in the books, as race and ethnicity rarely are the major things that one notices while reading but I do think when it comes to cinema and TV, the creators and directors need to be more conscious of these things and tread a fine line because not only are you showing this to millions of people at the same time, but most of these would also happen to be casual viewers or movie fans. Where we can argue about whether Tolkien was implicitly racist or not for days based on his letters (he was not), the casual viewer would take away the most simplistic inferences from what's present on the screen. And in a divided sociopolitical culture as today, that's dangerous.

Voronwë the Faithful wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:50 pm Well said, and wonderful to see you! :love:
It's been a long time, lovely to see you too! :love:
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Re: Colourblind Casting

Post by Anduril »

It's damned if you do, damned if you don't in this modern world it seems, when the source material is this Eurocentric, Anglocentric and... retrospective? leaning upon a sense of the past? to begin with. Like not everything needs to be overtly representative of everything all the time, but if that won't pass today then it can't be helped. Like isn't this "spiritual" or "metaphysical" side of Elves more implied than overt anyway.

Harad and Rhun etc were never really fleshed out, they just mean the South and the East. And wouldn't they be as large or larger in terms of area than the West? If you look at the most optimistic version of the lore concerning them, then Sauron would have conquered the West much earlier if the non-West was truly all united under him. The forces of West would have been greatly outnumbered otherwise. Then Aragorn went among men both evil and good in those lands. It's still making up stuff, but for instance, one could have some Eastern and Southern realms or groups of men trying to be independent from Sauron, trying to defend their borders like Gondor does, the Blue Wizards doing their work and all, while also having some Eastern and Southern men directly under Númenor's dominance and oppression. This would be more immediately lore compatible. It would need much work and it's likely not even close to the story they're going for, but like half or more of the stuff they previewed is basically made up too. The hobbits and the meteor man and the Silvan elf and human woman etc.

Speaking of that elf, did they did not see this snag coming? They cast him colorblindly, but Silvan elves are the "lesser" elves and more powerful elves like Galadriel (and Finrod apparently) are "white" and blonde. Elrond is blondish. Gil-galad is that other elf frowning and he's white "brunette" . Will they cast the Noldor as a random mix? From the bits of crowd shots for now, it looks like only the Silvan elf is different. It may well change with the full picture but right now, oh boy. Now of course if you assume that in the books all elves were just imagined to be "white", the only thing that would make them "objectively" greater or lesser among their own subgroups is their wisdom, since they did or didn't reach Valinor to see the Trees and be educated by the "Gods". Much less messy. With more Valar tutelage comes more developed culture etc.
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