Discussion about the Discussion about RoP

[Alatar]

The problem is that this institutionalised racism is predominantly an American problem yet the rest of us are expected to abide by American reactions to an American problem and apply them globally.


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[Voronwë the Faithful]

40% of International Students in Ireland Have Experienced Racism, Report Reveals

[RoseMorninStar]

The problem is that this institutionalised racism is predominantly an American problem yet the rest of us are expected to abide by American reactions to an American problem and apply them globally.

I was wondering about this very thing the other day Al. I would imagine your part of the world (like my little corner of the world) is fairly homogeneous? Something to consider: white males are generally at the top of the 'food chain' (so to speak). Being at the top can skew our perception of how those 'below' experience life. It's probably best to get feedback from those who are most affected rather than through our own lens at/near the top.

While the Americas have our own particular issues and history of racism, like V, I also looked up racism in Ireland and found quite a bit of data, even on structural racism. It's pretty much a global issue with variations and greater/lesser extent.

Some of my own ideas/misconceptions about race and racism were turned on it's head within the past year. It began with Whoopie's 'woopsie', where she presumed racism was primarily a black/white issue (and to a lesser extent other POC) due to our history here. She was wrong and she was set straight. That was a teaching moment/wake-up call for me and I'm learning. Or trying to.

[Frelga]

The problem is that this institutionalised racism is predominantly an American problem yet the rest of us are expected to abide by American reactions to an American problem and apply them globally.

What problems does that cause?

[elengil]

The problem is that this institutionalised racism is predominantly an American problem

What has led you to believe this is a predominantly American problem and not a global problem?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

No question that the United States' short history is inexorably tied to systemic racism, and continues to be. But systemic racism is older than this country and largely has its roots in Europe and what is now the United Kingdom, particularly with the doctrine of discovery and the history of colonialism. I don't disagree with Alatar that America's Racial Karma is particularly severe and in need of healing. But it is a false narrative that it is only an American issue.

[Smaug's voice]

The problem is that this institutionalised racism is predominantly an American problem yet the rest of us are expected to abide by American reactions to an American problem and apply them globally.

I agree on this as I don't really know how it is outside of it and it does get annoying when Eastern countries are expected to adapt and go along with American political terminology. I was just thinking about specifically Hollywood and such here because of RoP.


I appreciate that V!

[Frelga]

I agree on this as I don't really know how it is outside of it and it does get annoying when Eastern countries are expected to adapt and go along with American political terminology. I was just thinking about specifically Hollywood and such here because of RoP.


I appreciate that V!

What do you mean by Eastern countries? Asian, or Eastern European? Or both, I guess.

Ironically, I see claims that Disney panders to the Chinese market, and that's why they do not include same sex relationships in their movies.

[Alatar]

I don't deny that there is Racism in Europe, but the Irish have traditionally been on the receiving end so I'm not particularly willing to accept that I'm overflowing with White Privilege. We were occupied starved and tortured for 800 years after all. We only have home rule for about a century. In fact Blacks got the vote in America only a few decades after we did. Its a little galling to be dropped into the oppressor bucket because of the colour of my skin. One might say ironic.

[RoseMorninStar]

Some of my ancestors are Irish and they were almost certainly discriminated against (and starved, tortured). I'm certain many of my ancestors from various places had very hard lives and immigrated for a better life where they could (eventually) assimilate and blend in. It's more difficult when one can't do that, ever, due to the color of their skin. I would like to think I'd 'do unto others' and show compassion for something that is beyond their control.

I can't help but wonder if a people who have been oppressed, are they more (or less) sympathetic to oppression of others? Are they more or less likely to acknowledge and reject that oppression of others? I wonder how, for instance, a black applicant for a teaching or policing job would fare in my area. I'm almost certain they would not have a chance to be hired regardless of their qualifications. Sadly, and perhaps somewhat understandably, history has often shown that people would allow oppression of another people to keep the focus of ill -treatment from themselves. A pecking order or sort of caste system. The world would truly be a better place if it were 'blind' but I dare say we'd find other ways of tearing one another apart.

Two or three summers ago there was a young (black) woman walking door to door in my neighborhood selling a cleaning product for a charity. I didn't want to buy any cleaner but I was chit-chatting with her in our yard when a police car pulled up and told her to clear the area because she was not safe here. Someone had called the police simply because she was walking in our neighborhood. My heart broke for her. I can't imagine that someone felt so threatened by this young black woman that they called the police.

I am not sure how this discussion applies/fits in to actors of color in ROP. Tolkien obviously and intentionally had various (truly different) races in his middle earth that went beyond the mere color of skin or differences in culture or geo-politics.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't deny that there is Racism in Europe, but the Irish have traditionally been on the receiving end so I'm not particularly willing to accept that I'm overflowing with White Privilege.

Jews have been "on the receiving end" for a lot longer than the Irish. Most of my family was wiped out in the Holocaust. Both my grandfather (my mother's father) and my father had to change their last names in order to practice law in New York. When I was growing up, other children threw pennies at me calling out "Jewbegger, Jewbegger." None of that changes the fact that I am benefit of white privilege.

[elengil]

...but the Irish have traditionally been on the receiving end ...

Yes, because according to the people who invented the idea of white, Irish weren't. That's one of the most obvious ways we know that these racial classifications are full of it. Because it wasn't about the actual literal color of your skin originally, it was about creating a social hierarchy with certain people at the top and others stratified below them and enforced upon people all over the world.

I'm quite sure a chunk of my ancestors were fleeing exactly that when they came to the Americas. Where we lost our language, our accent, our customs, and then magically acquired 'whiteness' enough to no longer be on the receiving end of oppression.

That doesn't erase what has happened across the globe in the name of that whiteness, though. It doesn't soften the colonization and exploitation of Africa, or the destruction of Native groups across both North and South America, or the drug war that was waged on China to force it into trade deals, etc.

And being part of a group that at one time or other was considered Not White does not, today, remove the privilege I have in society. Is it going to look a little different in other places? Absolutely. But the same underlying concept is at play.

Which, to me, actually highlights the racism against the actors on RoP who are "not white." Bringing me back to my very initial question - why *would* invented fantasy races like Elves and Dwarves Need To Be White in the first place? Why the hatred - hatred directed overwhelmingly toward the *actors* and not necessarily even those who hired them - just because they have darker skin? Why is seeing a few characters not be Northern European White be cause for such uproar and outrage and indignation?

If the outrage is based on some concept of being true to the 'real history' of Europe - darker skin tones have lived in Europe throughout history, Potatoes and Tomatoes were not there, and, of course, Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits don't actually exist.

[Alatar]

I don't deny that there is Racism in Europe, but the Irish have traditionally been on the receiving end so I'm not particularly willing to accept that I'm overflowing with White Privilege.

Jews have been "on the receiving end" for a lot longer than the Irish. Most of my family was wiped out in the Holocaust. Both my grandfather (my mother's father) and my father had to change their last names in order to practice law in New York. When I was growing up, other children threw pennies at me calling out "Jewbegger, Jewbegger." None of that changes the fact that I am benefit of white privilege.

Of course it doesn't. But you live in America where the colour of your skin will affect your employment prospects and your social class. Thats simply not the case here except to the extent that many refugees have darker skin colour and by default are starting anew from a position of disadvantage. But that disadvantage is not related to their skin colour, its due to their displacement. THe most prevalent racism in Ireland is toward the travelling community, who have the same skin colour as the rest of us. I just don't understand why America (the homogenous people as opposed to individuals) feel that we in Europe have the same shared history of racism that americans do. We just don't.

[Alatar]

Which, to me, actually highlights the racism against the actors on RoP who are "not white." Bringing me back to my very initial question - why *would* invented fantasy races like Elves and Dwarves Need To Be White in the first place? Why the hatred - hatred directed overwhelmingly toward the *actors* and not necessarily even those who hired them - just because they have darker skin? Why is seeing a few characters not be Northern European White be cause for such uproar and outrage and indignation?

If the outrage is based on some concept of being true to the 'real history' of Europe - darker skin tones have lived in Europe throughout history, Potatoes and Tomatoes were not there, and, of course, Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits don't actually exist.

Playing Devils Advocate here (cause I have no problem with any of the actors race) I think its simply that it makes the world feel more politically correct and less "realistic" because while we had Spaniards and Sicilians who were slightly swarthier than middle Europeans, who were equally less Blonde than Scandinavians, there's a pretty clear feel for the general "whiteness" of Medieval Europe, and Tolkien made it very clear that this was the world he based Middle-earth on. The Southrons, Easterlings and Haradhrim from the South were swarthier and the Gondorians/Numenoreans etc were English/Greek/Roman archetypes and therefore homogeneously white. Since one of the things people have always loved about Tolkien is that despite the Fantasy trappings it felt real and lived in, anything that takes from that "realism" is a bad thing, and multiracial villages of Southlanders or Numenoreans or Elves or Dwarves feels more like pandering and tokenism.

Now, that's the vibe I get from Tolkien Purists, as opposed to the general orcsnest of Twitterati are are pretty much straight out racists. But I guess the point is you can disagree with having Black Elves and not be a racist.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't deny that there is Racism in Europe, but the Irish have traditionally been on the receiving end so I'm not particularly willing to accept that I'm overflowing with White Privilege.

Jews have been "on the receiving end" for a lot longer than the Irish. Most of my family was wiped out in the Holocaust. Both my grandfather (my mother's father) and my father had to change their last names in order to practice law in New York. When I was growing up, other children threw pennies at me calling out "Jewbegger, Jewbegger." None of that changes the fact that I am benefit of white privilege.

Of course it doesn't. But you live in America where the colour of your skin will affect your employment prospects and your social class. Thats simply not the case here except to the extent that many refugees have darker skin colour and by default are starting anew from a position of disadvantage. But that disadvantage is not related to their skin colour, its due to their displacement. THe most prevalent racism in Ireland is toward the travelling community, who have the same skin colour as the rest of us. I just don't understand why America (the homogenous people as opposed to individuals) feel that we in Europe have the same shared history of racism that americans do. We just don't.

Fair enough. As others in this thread have said, I appreciate your willingness to engage on this topic. Obviously, you are much more cognizant of the situation in Ireland than I am, but I do know that there is considerable racism directed at people of African descent in England and in other countries in Europe, and not just towards people who are recent immigrants.

[Alatar]

Racism in London is a different sort of thing though. It doesn't "feel" like American racism and its hard to describe why. I would say there's more racism directed at Indian and Pakistani than Africans from my experience, but again I'm just a regular visitor. I don't live there.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't disagree that it is different. A good friend of ours who is African-American and was very close to Mamady was staying with him in Brussels a number of years ago when Beth was also staying with him. He commented at that time he strange it was to go into a store wearing a hoodie and not feel threatened. This was 20 years ago or more. However, I also know people of Jamaican and other West Indian descent who's have been in England for generations and report experiencing extensive discrimination.

[elengil]

I just don't understand why America (the homogenous people as opposed to individuals) feel that we in Europe have the same shared history of racism that americans do. We just don't.

The concept of Whiteness was invented in Europe.
The colonization of countries filled with non-white people was perpetuated by European powers.
The Trans-Atlantic slave trade was created by European powers.
The brutalization and marginalization of indigenous people groups was largely begun by European colonial powers (later continued to be perpetuated by the countries which formed out of those powers.)

The fact that Europeans are *also* racist against some groups that also have white skin (while historically not being conferred the adjective "White") does not mean they are not racist against groups that have darker skin. Nor does it reduce skin-color based racism to a purely "American" problem, nor make America responsible for the history of global racism perpetuated by European powers before we were even a country.

Since one of the things people have always loved about Tolkien is that despite the Fantasy trappings it felt real and lived in, anything that takes from that "realism" is a bad thing,

And I find the idea that all of these races are universally white to be the most unrealistic part of most fantasy. I find the idea of Dwarves - created deep in the earth by a smith - being white to be entirely unrealistic.

Is the way RoP doing it pandering? Oh, absolutely. Amazon clearly believes that the appearance of diversity is better for profits than not. That does not actually mean it shouldn't have been done at all.
If the choice is between diversity done to pander or diversity done not at all, I'll take the pandering as at least acknowledgement that those people exist.
I'd much prefer diversity done well, of course. I'd much prefer it be approached with real heart and care and sincerity. But I'd rather have the world feel real - as you say - and the real world does contain people of various color and ethnicities.

It's the same reason why I understand why they continue to force badly done female characters into movies. Yes, they *are* badly done, and while I wish they were *well* done, it's better than not being done at all. I am just confused as to why doing it well seems to be so beyond the limited grasp of people who can bring such otherwise wonderful stories to life. I mean - I am not actually, when you take a homogenous group of white men and have them write a story that contains anything other than white men they seem to flail. They seem to forget that these are just people and want to reduce them to stereotypes.

But that's why it's *important to do it* - because we need to see that women are people, not "women". We need to see that black people are people, not just "black". We need to see that these people exist, because it allows the next movie to use them with less backlash and - with ANY hope at all - more real inclusivity.


To come back to the Irish angle, if a story was an Irish story set in Ireland telling about the history of the Irish but was played entirely by non-Irish actors employing outrageously bad accents and playing to every negative stereotype there was, that would be just as bad as Mickey Rooney's character in Breakfast at Tiffany's because it's not inclusion, it's not diversity, it's not even pandering - it's just straight up racist against a group of real people. While I haven't watched it to comment from my own observation, I've heard plenty of other sources decrying the Harfoots as being racist stereotypes of the Irish, which is both unfortunate and unsurprising given that - as we've all acknowledged - the Irish have faced their share of racism.

But it isn't as if the diverse cast is somehow responsible for the racist depictions - it's still the creators who made that choice that are responsible for it, and it would still exist whether or not those PoC actors had been cast or not. This still isn't 'reverse' discrimination - it's not the black actors making racist stereotypes of the Irish - it's still white people doing that.

[RoseMorninStar]

Much good discussion.
I'm thinking along your lines El.
So much hate, throughout history. Everywhere.
Oh.. Mickey Rooney's character in 'Breakfast at Tiffany's' is truly awful and cringe-worthy.

Tolkien's Middle-earth is mythology set on a mythological time on Earth but definitely not intended to be the Middle or Dark ages. It has elements of our world, but there are few direct correspondents following geography or specific time no matter how we might like to try to squeeze it into our concepts. There is (intentionally so) no religion or churches which greatly formed that period. The Rohirrim may have some elements of Northmen (as we know them) but they do not sail nor are they near the sea. They are horselords with a culture built around horses more akin to the Huns/Iranic peoples or modern day peoples of the Caucasus or Mongolia.

In addition to the hobbits having 'short, curly hair (brown)' - some interesting bits from Tolkien's letter 211 (in part)

I have no doubt that in the area envisaged in my story (which is large) the 'dress' of various peoples, men and others, was much diversified in the Third Age, according to climate, and inherited custom. As was our world ,** even if we only consider Europe and the Mediterranean and the very near 'East' (or South), before the victory in our time of the least lovely style of dress (especially for males and 'neuters') which recorded history reveals - a victory that is still going on, even among those who hate the lands of its origin. The Rohirrim were not mediaeval', in our sense.* The styles of the Bayeux Tapestry (made in England) fit them well enough, if one remembers that the kind of tennis-nets [the] soldiers seem to have on are only a clumsy conventional sign for chain-mail of small rings.
The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' - the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs. (But not of course in 'theology'; in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan - but this would take long to set out: to explain indeed why there is practically no overt 'religion',* or rather religious acts or places or ceremonies among the 'good' or anti-Sauron people in The Lord of the Rings. I think the crown of Gondor (the S. Kingdom) was very tall, like that of Egypt, but with wings attached, not set straight back but at an angle. (drawing)
The N. Kingdom had only a diadem (III 323), Cf. the difference between the N. and S. kingdoms of Egypt.

* Sc. belong to our 'mythological' Middle-Ages which blends unhistorically styles and details ranging over 500 years, most of which did not of course exist in the Dark Ages of c. 500 A.D.
*Almost the only vestige of 'religion' is seen on II pp. 284-5 in the 'Grace before Meat'. This is indeed mainly as it were a commemoration of the Departed, and theology is reduced to 'that which is beyond Elvenhome and ever will be', sc. is beyond the mortal lands, beyond the memory of unfallen bliss, beyond the physical world.

(...)

May I say that all this is 'mythical', and not any kind of new religion or vision As far as I know it is merely an imaginative invention, to express, in the only way I can, some of the (dim) apprehensions of the world. All I can say is that, if it were 'history', it would be difficult to fit the lands and events (or 'cultures') into such evidence as we possess, archaeological or geological, concerning the nearer or remoter part of what is now call Europe; though the Shire, for instance, is expressly state to have been in this region (I p. 12).6 I could have fitted things in with greater verisimilitude if the story had not become too far developed, before the question ever occurred to me. I doubt if there would have been much gain; and I hope the, evidently long but undefined gap* in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'.
I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time but kept my feet on the my own mother-earth for place. I prefer that to the contemporary mod of seeking remote globes in 'space'. However curious, they are alien, and not lovable with the love of blood-kin. Middle-earth is (by the way & if such a note is necessary) not my own invention. It is a modernization of alteration (N[ew] E[nglish] D[ictionary] 'a perversion') of an old world for the inhabited world of Men, the oikoumenë: middle because of the though of vaguely as set amidst the encircling Seas and (in the northern-inmagination) between ice of the North and the fire of the South. O. English middan-geard, mediæval E. midden-erd, middle-erd. Many reviewers seem to assume that Middle-earth is another planet!
Theologically (if the term is not too grandiose) I imagine the picture to be less dissonant from what some (including myself) believe to be the truth. but since I have deliberately written a tale, which is built on or out of certain 'religious' ideas, but is not and allegory of them (or anything else), and does not mention them overtly, still less preach them, I will not now depart from that mode, and venture on the theological disquisition for which I am not fitted. but ii might say that if the tale is 'about anything (other than itself), it is not as seems widely supped about 'power. Power-seeking is only the motive-power that sets events going, and is relatively unimportant, I think. It is mainly concerned with Death, and Immortality: and the 'escapes': serial longevity, and hoarding memory.

* I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years; that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. but they have, I think, quickened: and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh.

* Tolkien's notations
**my emphasis

I wonder what Tolkien means by 'neuters'. Is he referring to biological neuters (eunuchs) or transgender which are noted throughout history. I am guessing the latter. I am unsure of the point he is making about the victory of dress-even among those who hate its country of origin. Does anyone have any enlightenment on that?

This was a nightmare to type, btw.

[Frelga]

How come Devil has legions of advocates? Does God not need a lawyer?

I think its simply that it makes the world feel more politically correct and less "realistic"

While excluding non-white actors from all major productions feels like what, exactly?

Consider that an all-white cast only feels realistic to some people. I've lived in California long enough that a white out like that feels weird to me.