Episode 8 (Spoilers)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yeah, I thought that was bunkum all along. (I thought I was making up a word with "bunkum" but my spellchecker thinks it is one.)

These guys are a really curious mix of really subtle and really ridiculously stupid.

[Inanna]

These guys are a really curious mix of really subtle and really ridiculously stupid.

This. My heart bleeds for some of the writers. Some of ridiculous stupidness seems to be the outcome of committees. And I can almost see them writhing as they are forced to put in bloody stupid fights that mirror the Gandalf vs Saruman nonsense of the movies.

The stranger is definitely Gandalf. He even sounded like Gandalf when talking to Nori at the end of Episode 8.

This episode developed Galadriel well. Míriel & Elendil too.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I think he is Gandalf in all but name. I would not be surprised if they never name him.

[Dave_LF]

Well this episode managed to earn back the goodwill they lost from me with the mithril thing. I think I could have watched an entire episode of Sauron tempting Galadriel on the astral plan. It felt a bit like heresy, but heresy is exciting.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Well this episode managed to earn back the goodwill they lost from me with the mithril thing. I think I could have watched an entire episode of Sauron tempting Galadriel on the astral plan. It felt a bit like heresy, but heresy is exciting.

Thank goodness they didn't ruin it by having them kiss!

[dormouse]

I think they're just picking up on the legends of a lost king/leader who will return when his people need him. We have loads of those which long pre-date Tolkien - Arthur, of course, various hills under which a lost king is said to sleep, even Drake's Drum is a version of the same thing. There isn't any literal bloodline there, or any chance of an actual heir, just hope in a time of hopelessness. In one of the early episodes of RoP, when Arondir was meeting a fairly hostile reception in Waldreg's inn, the boy whom I assume was later killed by Waldreg said something like, "When our king comes again" - I assumed they were aiming at the same kind of legend:
"And made of them a legend, to their chief,
Arthur, Ambrosius, no man knows his name,
Granting a gallantry beyond belief,
And to his knights imperishable fame..."

[dormouse]

PS - comment above was responding to the last two on the page before - I keep forgetting to check for later posts.... And I am so relieved they didn't kiss!

[Alatar]

Also I bloody loved Bear McCrearys creepy ring verse at the end. Very Like Gollums song in style.


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[Inanna]

I think he is Gandalf in all but name. I would not be surprised if they never name him.

They will definitely name him. He’s forgotten stuff, he’s looking for who he was with Nori. He IS going to remember it.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The fact that he is going to the one place that Gandalf said he didn't go but that the Blue Wizards did go (the East) makes me think that he is meant to invoke Gandalf but not be Gandalf.

ETA: That would be consistent with this comment made during the run-up to the show:

In the footage that premiered in the Rings of Power Super Bowl teaser, audiences caught a glimpse of a tall, mysterious man who falls from the sky. Our immediate instinct is to wonder if he’s one of the wizards even the most casual fans might have heard of. In Tolkien’s text, they didn’t come to Middle-earth until the Third Age, but is the show taking some added liberties with the timeline? When asked if this might be Gandalf, Radagast, or Saruman, McKay answered cautiously, “Well, I would say those are not the only beings, those names, in that class. So maybe, but maybe not. And the mystery and the journey of it is all of the fun, I would say.”

[Inanna]

Ah, right. So one of the Blue.

[Eldy]

If he looks like PJ's Gandalf, talks like PJ's Gandalf, and exists in a show whose clearest creative vision is reminding people of things from PJ's movies...

In one of the early episodes of RoP, when Arondir was meeting a fairly hostile reception in Waldreg's inn, the boy whom I assume was later killed by Waldreg said something like, "When our king comes again" - I assumed they were aiming at the same kind of legend

I got the same impression from that scene.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Who just happens to say the same exact thing that film-Gandalf says thousands of years later, about following your nose.

x-posted with Eldy who said the same exact thing, better.

[Dave_LF]

If he doesn't end up being Gandalf, then the misdirection at the end of this episode was rather artless. Besides, Círdan's going to need Gandalf around so he can hand Narya over. It does make me wonder whether we're going to be encountering any more "wise ones" going forward, though.

Eldy, your post gave me a lot to think about. Like I said, I could have watched an entire episode of Galadriel being tempted by the dark side, and it was a bit disappointing that it was over so fast. I don't think it's *over* over just yet, though--there are still four seasons to go, and even though she ultimately said no to Sauron in this episode, she also chose to keep his secret. And for what it's worth, I read her refusal not as evidence that she's already too pure of heart to go bad, but rather that she simply hates Sauron too much to collaborate with him. Ironically, it's her flaws and fallen state that save her from sin. Much later, when she has the chance to rule not *with* Sauron but *in his place*, the "no" is more difficult.

Stray observation: As is often the case, the villains are one of the best parts of the series. Sauron and Adar are complex and interesting, and the Dweller is creepy in all the ways the orcs are not--I'm not usually impressed by VFX (they've gotten too easy and too cheap), but her shape shifting was fluid and understated in a way that almost makes you believe it's real. I kind of hope she survived the mothification and will be returning for more (I do think this is possible--I rewatched the scene and Dweller transforms into a single large moth that flies off a moment before the other two burst into dozens with a scream).

Another stray observation: It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Charles Edwards was cast as Celebrimbor solely for the closeups they do of his face during the forging. What great shots!

[Eldy]

And for what it's worth, I read her refusal not as evidence that she's already too pure of heart to go bad, but rather that she simply hates Sauron too much to collaborate with him. Ironically, it's her flaws and fallen state that save her from sin. Much later, when she has the chance to rule not *with* Sauron but *in his place*, the "no" is much more difficult.

That's a fair point, and I agree that her hatred of Sauron is the biggest factor. My main beef, aside from not liking the reuse of wording from the temptation scene in Fellowship, was this exchange specifically:

HALBRAND: [...] Together, we can save this Middle-earth.

GALADRIEL: Save? Or rule?

HALBRAND: I see no difference.

GALADRIEL: [holds a knife to his neck] And that is why ... I will never be at your side.

While acknowledging that this is clearly not the only reason Galadriel is opposed to allying with Sauron, I take issue with this because it's an essential thematic statement of Tolkien's. One of the core themes running through the entire legendarium is the wrongness of trying to dominate the wills of others, even for good (or "good") purposes. Sauron/Halbrand's line here is on point, and in keeping with Tolkien's comments on his motivation in Myths Transformed. But Galadriel's rebuttal is thousands of years premature, because in Fellowship she was still tempted by the idea of ruling Middle-earth to save it when Frodo offered her the Ring. But in ROP, not only does she casually dismiss this offer, she cites that offer as her reason for rejecting Halbrand's overtures in their entirety. Granted, this is not necessarily inconsistent with show!Galadriel's character, since they seem to have totally excised her desire to rule realms of her own, which was crucial to Tolkien's Galadriel. But that doesn't stop me being grumpy.

Another factor is that it feels like a waste to spend seven episodes building chemistry and attraction between two characters only for that to have no impact on Galadriel's reaction to Sauron when she finally realizes she's face-to-face with him. If the show puts them onscreen together in a future season and shows Galadriel feeling more conflicted, I'll be happy to eat crow here, but the final shot of Halbrand in his Evil Cloak(tm) suggests his abortive repentance has ended, so I'm not holding my breath.

I think you're right that show!Galadriel is not—and is not meant to be read as—pure of heart, but given how much time the show spent establishing parallels between her and Halbrand, I wish they hadn't introduced such a crucial difference between them at the eleventh hour, especially when that's also a change from the book.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Another stray observation: It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Charles Edwards was cast as Celebrimbor solely for the closeups they do of his face during the forging. What great shots!

Agreed!

I really loved the scene when Galadriel was talking to Elrond about why she left the boat to Valinor. It definitely invokes the pathos of her lament in LotR. It doesn't match up with any of the various stories that Tolkien told of either an explicit ban on her return, or her refusal to do so out of pride, but it fits nicely beside them, at least for me.

It really amazes me that I can even say that. Given how bad I find certain aspects of the show, it really is quite remarkable how good I find other elements.

x-posted with Eldy yet again!

[Dave_LF]

Eldy: I can't find anything to argue with there

(though for the record, I'm basically indifferent to any chemistry between them, and am far more interested in her temptation to power and heresy. I don't mind that there's an undertone of sexual tension too, as long as it remains an undertone)

Edit: crosspost with V

[Eldy]

though for the record, I'm basically indifferent to any chemistry between them, and am far more interested in her temptation to power and heresy. I don't mind that there's an undertone of sexual tension too, as long as it remains an undertone

That's fair. And I should probably be upfront that my perspective is shaped in part by being an Annatar/Celebrimbor shipper in a book context. Since I don't like show!Celebrimbor, and he barely has any screentime with Sauron anyway, I have to sublimate those tendencies into support for a different ship.

[Dave_LF]

Different question: I could have sworn before the first episode came out I read a Sadaoc character bio somewhere that said he was carrying a secret physical wound he didn't want anyone to know about. I was waiting all season for the reveal, so when he took a knife to the gut, I assumed that was finally it. And then he died instead. Am I crazy?

[Eldy]

The only pre-release piece on Sadoc I can recall is Henry's brief comments to Empire magazine, which don't mention any wounds. I did a Google search for mentions of "sadoc burrows" from before September 1 (the day of the premiere in the Western Hemisphere) that also contained the word "wound" but didn't come up with anything relevant.