Who to blame for Finrod's death

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Sassafras
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Post by Sassafras »

Ath wrote:
Finrod takes his song, somehow, through time and space back to Valinor to draw upon the pureness and power of the Blessed Realm.
:love:

Yes.

<to paraphrase myself from the 'Living in Both Worlds' thread.>

And how is this possible?

Because, the Calaquendi have the ability to co-exist simultaneously in both the spiritual, astral world of Aman and the physical, terrestrial world of Middle-earth. Those Elves whose souls (for lack of a better word) have been enhanced by the Light of Telperion and Laurelin are able to draw upon that celestial power in times of great need.
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Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:


"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Alatar wrote:It just strikes me as a little, well, literal?

IF thats why the Kinslaying is mentioned, what's the howling wolf, or the fleeing raven? Are the "captives sad in Angband" mourning the failure of Finrod, or are they part of Saurons song?


Its just not that cut and dried to me. I like the idea, but I don't necessarily believe its what Tolkien intended.
To me, the wind wailing, the wolf howling, the ravens fleeing, the ice muttering (:P), all just gives it more atmosphere. The sad captives mourning is ambiguous enough to refer to either mourning for the kinslaying itself, or for Finrod's defeat (although I prefer the former). But I have to repeat what I said before: I can't see what possible purpose the reference to the kinslaying has if is not referring to how Sauron defeated Finrod.

I'm curious to know what you think Tolkien intended by it, Al?

But since we are talking about Tolkien's intention, I do think it is important to keep in mind that Tolkien did NOT include those verses in the Silmarillion. That really highlights the difficulty of analyzing a work that was cobbled together from so many disparate sources. I don't know the actual Lay of Leithien well enough to form an opinion of what Tolkien's intentions were when he included those lines there. It occurs to me that much of his intention in that context was simply trying to maintain the rhyme scheme and other structural elements of the verse.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Alatar
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Post by Alatar »

My own instinctive reading was a very cinematic one. To me it was as if the very being and history of Arda was being called to witness this battle of wills, not that the history itself was affecting the outcome.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Hmmm. Interesting. I'll have to think about that. And probably, go back and try to read the Lay itself (which I have always had trouble getting through).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Al.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

souls (for lack of a better word)
Technically, they are fëar, but since talking about "fear" gets confusing, souls works just as well. "Spirit" would be an alternative translation.

*is a huge fan of the Lay*

The last few lines:
  • The captives sad in Angband mourn.
    Thunder rumbles, the fires burn -
    And Finrod fell before the throne.
...have been tweaked. In the original, Tolkien maintains the rhyming couplets (which is how the rest of the Lay is written):
  • The captives sad in Angband mourn.
    Thunder rumbles, the fires burn,
    a vast smoke gushes out, a roar -
    and Felagund swoons upon the floor.
(In the Lay, Sauron is called Thû, while Finrod is called Felagund [Finrod is still the name of his father, Finarfin.])

And yes, I assume that Voronwë already knew that, so I hope I'm not stepping on toes to point it out. I recently read it in one of Wilko's old threads on TORc.

Anyway......

This scene is preceded, in the Lay, with the Interrogation. "Where have ye been? What have ye seen?"
Still in disguise, Finrod answers as an orc:
"In Elfinesse; and tears and distress,
the fire blowing, the blood flowing,
these have we seen, there have we been.
Thirty we slew and their bodies threw
in a dark pit. The ravens sit
and the owl cries where our swath lies."
When asked their names, they give Dungalef and Nereb ;) During the course of the brief interview, Sauron discovers that they know more about the kingdoms of the elves than the movements of the orcs, so he asks them to repeat their vows:
  • 'Whom do ye serve, Light or Mirk?
    Who is the maker of mightiest work?
    Who is the king of earthly kings,
    the greatest giver of gold and rings?
    Who is the master of the wide earth?
    Who despoiled them of their mirth
    the greedy Gods? Repeat your vows,
    Orcs of Bauglir! Do not bend your brows!
    Death to light, to law, to love!
    Cursed be moon and stars above!
    May darkness everlasting old
    that waits outside in surges cold
    drown Manwë, Varda and the sun!
    May all in hatred be begun,
    and all in evil ended be,
    in the moaning of the endless Sea!'

    But no true Man or Elf yet free
    would ever speak that blasphemy.
Beren asks to be allowed to get on with their errand, and Sauron replies:
  • 'Patience! Not very long
    shall ye abide. But first a song
    I will sing to you, to ears intent.'
    Then his flaming eyes he on him bent,
    and darkness black fell round them all.
    Only they saw as through a pall
    of eddying smoke those eyes profound
    in which their senses choked and drowned.
It continues with the portion quoted in the published Silmarillion. I think it was a brilliant suggestion to portray the song using the Lay :D. But anyway, hopefully that will help to put it into context. The Lay does make many references to past history throughout - we hear how Thingol met Melian, for instance, and we got the Oath and Kinslaying earlier to understand why Celegorm and Curufin are so opposed to the idea.

As I see it, the contest with Sauron progresses from simple to profound. At first, they are just giving riddling double-speak answers, then they must give names in disguise, and then he traps them because they do not really know what the Orcs were up to. But that is just "interrogation."

It moves on to the gauntlet of the blasphemous oaths - now, rather than being asked if they know what orcs know, they are being asked if they believe what orcs believe - are they orcs 'in truth.' And of course, they are not, so they cannot. In the build-up of Thû, JRRT established that he was a wizard and necromancer - now, he uses that power on them, to strip them of their disguises and reveal who they really are.

Finrod tries to match his powers against that, so this is an active duel, not just a 'recalling' of past events. They are not reliving history, but Finrod is calling it up to his defense (so history is not a passive witness, either). The chink in his armor is the Kinslaying, and so Sauron is able to use that to overthrow him, in the end. The way he does this is by 'taking over' the things that Finrod recalls. The Kinslaying is a work fit for Morgoth, not the elves, and so....

But the reason I quoted so extensively, was so everyone could see the language used in the Lay for comparison. "the fire blowing, the blood flowing," might be poetic, but it is also concrete - it is meant to refer to actual fire and actual blood.
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Post by Alatar »

Thanks Mith, that helps a lot. :)
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yes, I agree. Great post, Mith. Thank you very much.
MithLuin wrote:And yes, I assume that Voronwë already knew that, so I hope I'm not stepping on toes to point it out.
No, of course not. The sharing of information and knowledge is always a good thing.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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