Strains of Judaism and Halachic Interpretation

[Jnyusa]

This thread was started to capture the off-topic discussion in the thread entitled: Female Religious Leaders. The discussion was broken off at this post: http://www.thehalloffire.net/forum/view ... 7058#47058
___________________________________________________________

Here's the thread for:

1. Progressive Judaism in Australia and how it compares to Conservative and Reform Judaism in the US

2. Ritual impurity and what it means under various circumstances

As all are related to the role of women in Judaism,

or not related to that ...

Jn

p.s. actually, should I perhaps have split off the other thread instead?

Let me have a second look and perhaps delete this thread and use a split instead.

eta: hmmm, it would be tough, because posts addressing more than one thing are mixed into the posts about this ... let me cross-link instead, and then the order of thought won't be lost either.

[Glawariel]

I guess I was referring to Miriam's affliction, which is so directly the result of speaking ill of Moses. I am aware that there's more to it than that and would welcome your elaboration on this.

It's true that Miriam's tzara'at seems directly linked to her speaking with Aharon about Moshe and I think that this is probably the strongest source from the Torah (i.e specifically the 5 Books of Moses) for the connection. [Just as an aside- if this is so, an interesting question to think about (and has been by many commentors) is why was Aharon not afflicted with tzara'at as well, considering that he was part of the conversation if only as the listener (that is actually one suggested possibility as an answer). According to the text there he doesn't seem to be punished at all.]
There are numerous references in the Torah to tzara'at but this instance with Miriam is the only one that directly associates it with some sort of sin. This makes tzara'at more of a punishment as opposed to a condition that has both spiritual and physicall elements (or rather a spiritual condition that manifests itself physically).
The only other time that the Torah speaks about tzara'at in the context of a specific person is with Moshe, when he's just given the command by G-d to be the leader of the Jewish People and take them out of Egypt (Exodus, chapter 4). There, Moshe epresses concern that the Jewish People won't believe him so G-d gives him a couple of signs for him to show them.

Exodus 4:6- "And G-d further said to him- 'Put your hand in your bosom'. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was diseased, as white as snow (metzorah kasholeg)"

This case doesn't seem like a punishment at all.

It is only in the Book of Prophets that tzara'at really emerges as a punishment. But even in the numerous cases there, there is no indication that the specific sin that would cause one to be afflicted is speaking lashon harah. In fact, in those expamples, lashon harah has nothing to do (at least within the text) with the inappropriate behavior of the afflicted that warranted punishment.

It is later in the Midrash- Leviticus Rabbah- that the Rabbis attribute tzara'at specifially with lashon harah- or more specifically motzie shem rah (someone who causes an other to have a bad name). And that understanding seems to come from a play on words: "metzorah"="motzie shem rah" which is then supported by numerous Biblical texts, as is the way with Midrash (well, one of many).

I hope that was helpful and not too much extraneous information. I have a real brevity problem and I only just finished a course on this very topic that I found fascinating so alot of this stuff is still very fresh in my mind.

I'm also interested in the differences between Conservative and Reform in the US and other countries. I just moved to London, where I'll be spending the year, and I've noticed a number of differences there as well.

And regarding the ritual impurity stuff, I think I'll be better at responding so I'll need to wait on that until it's brought in detail again

[Jnyusa]

Wishing everyone a light fast.

See you all on Tuesday.

Jn

[Frelga]

Wishing everyone a light fast.

See you all on Tuesday.

Jn

Thanks, Jnyusa, an easy fast to you, too, and to all my Jewish friends. And for my non-Jewish friends who may be curious - Yom Kippur.

[Rowanberry]

Thanks for the link, Frelga - that website is very informative. (As is everything posted here.)

[Glawariel]

Wishing everyone a light fast.

See you all on Tuesday.

Jn

Thanks, Jnyusa, an easy fast to you, too, and to all my Jewish friends

Thanks so much, to both of you, for your Yom Kippur wishes! I hope that your respective Yom Kippurs (as well as everyone else's ) were meaningful and productive.

By the way, I was wondering if the services for Yom Kippur differ at all in Reform and Conservative Synagogues- from each other and from those in Orhodox Synagogues.

[Jnyusa]

We had an unkind joke in the town where I grew up ... that the Reform Temple broke for lunch on Yom Kippur.

I've never been to a Reform service, actually. And I've only been to a geniune Orthodox service once, on Yom Kippur in Israel. I'm afraid that was so long ago (more than thirty years) that I don't remember anything about the service. I had to borrow a dress and scarf from a friend because I didn't own anything that covered enough of me, and the women had to stay in the balcony, SRO, with a wooden lattice blocking our view of the bimah. I'm afraid it was not the most edifying experience I've ever had, given the climate and the number of bodies crammed together.

The Yom Kippur that lives in memory for me was 1982. I belonged at that time to a havurah that was, mmm, liberal conservative. We had obtained that year a holocaust Torah and we held complete High Holyday services for the first time. I guess about 150 people showed up for Yom Kippur, and it happened that the dvarah Torah fell to me. I was also nine months pregnant with D#2 at the time, she was due in, like, three weeks ... luckily Yom Kippur fell in October as it did this year, so the weather was not unbearable, but this was during the first Israel invasion of Lebanon and the massacre at Sabra and Shatila had just come to light. It was a very emotional time, and Vayyera is a very emotional portion, you know. I can't remember at all what I talked about, something about the mitzvot of family life - I figured I could deliver that convincingly given my condition - but I felt that a sort of unique blessing was conferred on that day ... like, in the bible when a woman makes a prediction about her child or a commitment for her child and the Lord "fulfills" it ....

Naming D#2 was a big deal for me. Because of what was happening in Israel right at that time I was strongly inclined to name her after Jacob's daughter, but I didn't want to name my child as a rebuke, you know? It felt like that, and didn't sit quite right with me. Then I happened to be reading Elie Wiesel's Souls on Fire and I came across a quote attributed to Rebbe Nachman of Bratslav: "If there is judgment below, there will be none above." This is an appropriate sort of commitment for Yom Kippur, you know, so I did name her 'judgment,' in Hebrew, but with the words of the Rebbe in mind representing my hope that she would be one who, though born in the middle of a betrayal not unlike that suffered by Jacob's daughter, would bring some healing to the world by means of ... discernment. I talked about this at her naming and again at her bat-mitzvah.

And ... she's at the top law school in the country right now and it seems she will specialize in public interest law of some sort. She worked on prisoner's rights over the summer. I never drilled this burden into her, you know , though both daughters know why they were named as they were, but she is impassioned about justice in her own right. And I can't help feeling that she fulfills something by this, you know? Her birth occured amid a terrible injustice but her life's work will put weight on the other side of the scale.

So, anyway, that Yom Kippur stays in my heart for that reason.

My oldest daughter was named with equal import, but for wholly different circumstances, and she is also fulfilling her name. It sounds a bit crazy (even to me) because I'm not really religious, in the sense of being observant, and I don't believe in the traditional representation of God at all, but I do believe that what goes around comes around, and one can send good ripples into the future by being very careful with one's children.

On another note, vison asked me once something about the Yom Kippur War in the thread on peace in the Middle East and I forgot to answer her. It comes to mind now because we're talking about Yom Kippur ...

vison, the reason the Israeli's considered themselves lucky to have been attacked on Yom Kippur is because *everyone* is in the synagogue on Yom Kippur and they were able to call up the Reserves almost immediately. If they had been attacked on Rosh Hashana, when so much of the population is out having a vacation in the countryside, they would have been overrun before the Reserves could have been contacted and deployed.

This is also something that has struck me before about the mentality of Arab warfare. They are very big on symbolic acts. They attacked on the holiest day of the Jewish Year for its symbolic value, even though strategically this was not the best choice. When America was attacked, the target was the WTC, when I can think of several other targets that would have had a much more devastating effect on our morale and our economy. But the WTC represented exactly the nature of the beef they seem to have with us - it is a symbol of our world power. So ... just food for thought.

Jn

[Frelga]

Glawariel, thank you. My day was certainly meaningful, and though I've never before connected the word "productive" with Yom Kippur, I suppose in a certain sense it was.

We had an unkind joke in the town where I grew up ... that the Reform Temple broke for lunch on Yom Kippur

Ouch. No, those I spoke to at the services fasted, as did my husband and I.

I can't speak of the different flavors of service. I've been to some Chabbad services. The first one I ever attended was conducted by missionary-minded folks who were thrilled that the Jews in what used to be the Soviet Union were getting access to any sort of religious observance. They were very willing to put up with what to them must have been shocking ignorance and transgressions. The services were in Hebrew, of which I knew about three words. The thing I remember most about those services was the exhilaration of just being there, of claiming and discovering this forbidden part of myself, feeling all bold and fearless.

I don't think I've been to an Orthodox or Conservative service. Obviously, at a Reform service there is no mehitza or a woman's gallery. I sat next to my husband, and one of the most meaningful moments in the services for me came as we were singing Avinu Malkeinu for the last time and he put his arm around me. The feeling of spiritual union with him and with the entire congregation was powerful and profound.

And fast was easy. I have no problems going without food for a day, it's stopping after the first piece of chocolate that is difficult.

[Glawariel]

Just wanted to wish you all a happy Chanukah filled with light and joy!

[Jnyusa]

Thank you, Glowy. Same to you and yours.

(I had a lovely evening yesterday with D#1, S-i-L#1 and the two grandchildren.)

Jn

[Glawariel]

Thank you, Glowy. Same to you and yours.

(I had a lovely evening yesterday with D#1, S-i-L#1 and the two grandchildren.)

Jn

Thanks, Jn. It's so nice that you were able to spend that time (albeit brief) with your daughter and her family (it took me a while to figure out the abbreviations but I got it ). I think that sometimes people don't view Chanukah as the extremely family friendly holiday that it is. In fact, I think that its celebration is made that much more meaningful when shared with our families and those that we love.

[anthriel]

I have a question for my Jewish friends here. Perhaps this isn't the thread for it, but you ARE talking about Chanukah...

My daughter is such a generous little thing... she has always been very careful to give EVERYONE a Christmas gift, and everyone means all of her aunts and uncles (there are many), all of her cousins, and all of her friends. The gifts are not expensive (as you can imagine-- she only makes a few dollars a week in allowance!) but this giving to people is very important to her.

This year, she is very concerned because two of her friends in class are Jewish, and she doesn't want to exclude them from her gift-giving, but she wants to be respectful of their religion. She asked one little friend today about it, and apparently the child said something about a menorah... so my daughter wants to go out and buy a menorah for this friend.

I don't know what it was that that child actually said, or what she thought she was being asked, but I doubt it would be appropriate for a Christian fifth grader to buy her 10 year old Jewish friend a menorah. Plus, they probably cost more than $2!

So, a question or two to you here: Would it be appropriate for my daughter to buy her Jewish friends a gift this time of year, and, if so, what type of thing might be appropriate?

Thank you in advance for your help!

[Glawariel]

My daughter is such a generous little thing... this giving to people is very important to her...
This year, she is very concerned because two of her friends in class are Jewish, and she doesn't want to exclude them from her gift-giving, but she wants to be respectful of their religion.

(trying to think of appropriate words.....nope)

So, a question or two to you here: Would it be appropriate for my daughter to buy her Jewish friends a gift this time of year, and, if so, what type of thing might be appropriate?
Thank you in advance for your help!

I just want to say, firstly, that it is such a wonderful and lovely thing that your daughter wants to buy her friends gifts and that generosity and respect is so important to her. If there was only a little bit more of that in this world, oh, what a world it would be.

It would most definitely be appropriate for her to give her friends a gift. As it turns out, it is customary for there to be gift giving on Chanukah as well much to the delight of, well, everyone (I was going to say kiddies but that wouldn't be the whole truth now would it ).

In terms of what to get, I guess that really depends on what she wants to spend. What is she getting her other friends? Does she want it to be Chanukah themed? I'm so bad at figuring these things out . I usually find that the best gifts are things that we would like to get ourselves.

Anth, your daughter sounds like a really special person. I hope that this is not too presumptious of me to say being that I don't really know you that well but it seems to me, at least from what I've read here, that it's trait that must run in the family. I hope she continues to be a source of tremendous nachat- joy- for you!

[Jnyusa]

What a great kid, Anthy!

If she is gift-giving to all her little friends, I don't think her gifts to her Jewish friends need to be Hannukah-themed. Except for bunches of Hannukah stickers I didn't get my grandchildren anything that was themed. The traditional gift is a dreidl, but I don't know anyone who knows how to play the dreidl game today. If the parents want to keep up the dreidl tradition they'll probably provide the dreidls themselves. (A driedl is played kind of like a top - you spin it around and it lands on its side and shows a letter which is either a winning letter or a losing letter. That is the whole of my knowledge about the game. )

Anything your daughter would choose for her other friends would be fine, I'm sure. What a sweetie!

Jn

[anthriel]

Glowy, thank you! My daughter is a special little person... and you are not being presumptuous, you are being very sweet!

Jn, the problem is, most things my daughter buys are Christmas ornaments. She tends to get them because they are relatively inexpensive, they are seasonal and therefore special to the occasion, and they have lots of bling. She likes bling.

But... probably not appropriate for her Jewish friends.

She was thinking about buying her friends a candle, because of the menorah idea. I told her that I don't think she should buy a candle that would GO in the menorah, but maybe just a scented candle for their room.

I dunno. $2 each doesn't go very far...

[Jnyusa]

Scented candle is a great idea, Anth.

I can get them at my supermarket for $1.00. They're not big, but with a little ribbon tied around them they make a nice gift for this kind of children's gift exchange. Have you tried supermarkets and hardware stores?

Jn

[Frelga]

Anth, I have to chime in and echo Glowy and Jny - your daughter is a treasure and a true reflection of her mom.

As far as I know, very few people and no kids ever got upset at getting a gift. That said, as you pointed out, a Christmas ornament is not the best gift for an observant Jewish child, for the simple reason that there will not be a Christmas tree on which to put it. I am greatly impressed that your daughter recognized that and wishes to be so generous, inclusive and respectful. Oh blast, I'm tearing up now! * sniffles *

I agree with Jn, the gift need not be Hanukah themed. While I can't imagine anyone getting upset at getting a menorah or a box of Chanukah candles, you are (as usual) correct that they probably cost more that $2. Stickers, if girls are into it, srike me as a close-enough thing to a Christmas ornament. A scented candle is lovely, or some other bling object, or candy - you can get "Chanukkah gelt" - chocolate coins. Really, don't stress out about it, it's not a big deal and you can't go wrong.

P.S.: I need to make this longer, so I can come up with more ways to spell "Hanukkah"

[Jnyusa]

P.S.: I need to make this longer, so I can come up with more ways to spell "Hanukkah"

LOL! Then you have to worry that the person you're writing to doesn't think that you are subtly correcting their goyisher spelling!

I got a nice Hannukah email note from an internet friend in the southwest who is Christian, and she spelled it Chanukkah .... personally I never spell it with Ch but I was careful to spell it that way when writing to thank her because I didn't want any perceived spelling correction to mar the message. (Especially since I was pretty sure she had googled around to find how to spell it.)

It's the kaf and not the nun that has the dot, right? It should be two k's, but double-k is so unusual in English it never looks quite right to me, so I almost always end up doubling the n instead.

Jn

[anthriel]

You guys are so funny.

I HAD spelled it originally with an "H", that's the way I am used to seeing it, here on the goyish side of the aisle, but then noticed Glowy's spelling, and thought: well, THAT has to be more right than whatever I would come up with. I cut and pasted for perfect accuracy. Saved me from googling.

I think my daughter and I are going to run to Michael's, and get a couple of plain candles, and then buy some flashy ribbon or glue-on sparkly thingies (non flammable, of course!) to bling up the candles. Bling is always good.

As far as I know, very few people and no kids ever got upset at getting a gift

I think you are right. But I am trying to be sensitive (and so is my daughter, mature little thing that she is!) to not shove OUR religiously based practices onto those who don't share our religion. Even with the best of intentions, it can be... presumptuous, I guess.

I'm glad Ch- H- ann- an- uk- kkah has a gift giving tradition, too.

[nerdanel]

Anthy, you and your daughter rock. The pluralism and inclusiveness and thoughtfulness and goodwill - dude, I want to be like you AND your daughter when I grow up.