Walking in Shadows: The Rings of Power in Middle-earth

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I thought the 7 and 9 were conceived of as two distinct "sets", though it isn't clear in what ways they differed:

Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three...

But were they originally two distinct sets, or did they become so after they were given to the Dwarves and Men?

(I should note that I always thought the 7 and 9 were conceived as distinct sets, too, and it is only the course of this discussion that I have begun to consider differently.)

[Roccondil]

I thought the 7 and 9 were conceived of as two distinct "sets", though it isn't clear in what ways they differed:

The problem here is that Tolkien’s writings are not clear on this matter. Every time except once he deals with the Sixteen as one group of Rings. Only in “Unfinished Tales” is there any distinction made.

A fuller quote from the text that wilko gave is

There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose.

Unfinished Tales: Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn

We have two choices here, one story-external and one story-internal.

The story-external explanation is that Tolkien is writing from a position where he (and the reader) already know that the Rings were divided into Seven and Nine. He is therefore explaining where these two groups of Rings came from.

However, it is always better to have a story-internal explanation, if possible, and I think there is one.

The quote clearly states that the Seven had already been “bestowed”, that is, were being worn by individuals, whereas the Nine were kept by the Mírdain themselves. This implies to me that there were two groups of Rings, and that the Seven had been made first.

However, Celebrimor clearly classed the powers of these two groups as similar, certainly when compared to the powers of the Three. Any differences between them must therefore have been small.

The idea that the Seven were created first fits, of course with the idea that the very first of the Seven was given by Celebrimor to Durin III. When one studies the likely politics of that time, from the hints given in UT, then I think this is quite likely and that Sauron in any case would have encouraged the offering of such a gift, binding the dwarves to the Celebrimor-Annatar power base and further isolating Galadriel from potential allies.

Once Celebrimor seized power in Eregion, the dwarves, who had been most friendly with Galadriel, offered her safe passage through Moria, but no other help.

As wilko pointed out though, this explanation seems to be contradicted by the passage in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age which states that Sauron handed out all Seven.

[Túrin Turambar]

We have to disregard one passage. We know the Elves of Eregion were close friends of the Dwarves, so I think that it is possible that the seven were originally made for them. Then again, how did they intend to give the rings to Houses in the far east? And why, when they had no dealings with them? Perhaps all 7 were intended for Durin III? Or perhaps they intended one ring to Durin and they wanted to keep fifteen for themselves, in which case the seven-nine division only came when Sauron grabbed the rings.

I suppose what we really need to ask is why sixteen great rings were made in the first place.

[Rowanberry]

My understanding on the Seven and the Nine is that, even if they may have been made as two different sets, their basic properties after Sauron had corrupted them weren't different; it was the innate characteristics of the dwarves that made their bearers relatively immune to their effects, so that they only became greedy for gold.

Then, just a little nitpick:

For the record, I believe that the Three were originally intended for the leaders of the three houses of the Noldor – one ring (presumably Narya) to Celebrimbor of the House of Fëanor, one to Gil-Galad of the House of Fingolfin and one to Galadriel of the House of Finarfin.

That is logical, if we follow the genealogy as it is presented in the published Silmarillion and UT, and that may really been the case at the time the story about the making of the Three was written. However, Tolkien later changed his ideas of Gil-galad's descent so that he was also of the House of Finarfin: Orodreth was made Angrod's son instead of brother, and Gil-galad was Orodreth's son (and so Finduilas's brother). That would, BTW, explain the discrepancy in the Sil that Turgon became High King after Fingon's death, although it was told that Fingon had a son who could have inherited the position.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Gandalf does say, at the Council of Elrond, that the Three, the Seven and the Nine each have their own jewels.

[Túrin Turambar]

I take that too mean the individual rings had their own jewels. We know the Three do not share the same gemstone - why hsould we assume the Seven and the Nine do? Part of ring-lore might involve knowing which gems belonged to which set.

[Rowanberry]

If you're referring to my post: Sure, the different rings had different kinds of gems set in them. But, their basic properties after Sauron got them in his hands were similar - they were made to corrupt their bearers and make them succumb to Sauron's will. It just didn't work for the dwarves as Sauron had planned.

[Alatar]

If you're referring to my post: Sure, the different rings had different kinds of gems set in them. But, their basic properties after Sauron got them in his hands were similar - they were made to corrupt their bearers and make them succumb to Sauron's will. It just didn't work for the dwarves as Sauron had planned.

That was my impression also. There was no intrinsic difference between the Nine and the Seven, the only difference was the way in which the rings powers worked upon those of different race. In the Dwarves they worked through their love of gold, such that at the foundation of each of the seven hoards of the dwarves there was one of the Seven. Men were seduced with the offers of power and eternal life, which they received.... after a fashion

[Túrin Turambar]

If you're referring to my post

I was addressing Voronwë's post. I should have been clearer.

[scirocco]

It's often useful to refer to early drafts of LOTR, since Tolkien often removed or revised details from them to reach the published format, yet the underlying thoughts and assumptions frequently remained. In this case, in the Second Phase of the writing, we have:

In ancient days the Necromancer, the Dark Lord Sauron, made many magic rings of various properties that gave various powers to their possessors. He dealt them out lavishly and sowed them abroad to ensnare all peoples, but specially Elves and Men. For those that used the rings, according to their strength and will and hearts, fell quicker or slower under the power of the rings, and the dominion of their maker." Three, Seven, Nine and One he made of special potency." for their possessors became not only invisible to all in this world, if they wished, but could see both the world under the sun and the other side in which invisible things move.' And they had (what is called) good luck, and (what seemed) endless life. Though, as I say, what power the Rings conferred on each possessor depended on what use they made of them - on what they were themselves, and what they desired....

Ancient History, The Return of the Shadow

While the specifics of the many rings, "dealt out lavishly" may have changed somewhat to the published form, we can see the underlying concept of Sauron as "Ring-maker General". IMHO, this confirms the views of other posters that the (a) Rings were not made for specific racial groups, just kind of cooked up on a production line, and that (b) their effect on the possessor depended on his nature.

Obviously the concept of the Three Rings made by the Elves is different from this passage, but I think it's good example of where some of JRRT's underlying intent can be discerned from his drafts and sketches. These intentions often "bled over" into the published material even when the details had changed (compare Aragorn's reluctance to enter Moria with Trotter's torture there).

[Jnyusa]

That's very enlightening, Scirocco. Aragorn's reluctance to enter Moria always puzzled me. He expresses it while they are trying to decide which path to take, but we never learn why. It seems, then, that his comment about fearing for Gandalf was a later addition to the text?

Jn

[scirocco]

Jnyusa, that probably was added later, but I was thinking specifically of "I too once passed the Dimrill Gate,' said Aragorn quietly; 'but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time..."

Tolkien probably left this in becasue it adds depth and mysteriousness to Aragorn's history, but we can be pretty sure it never would have seen the light of day if Trotter hadn't been captured and tortured there when the Ranger character was a hobbit.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Trotter, tortured in Moria? I don't recall that at all. I recall him being tortunred in Mordor. I don't suppose you have a specific reference? There are several that I can find to his being in Mordor, but none in Moria (e.g., Return of the Shadow, p. 371 - "Trotter turns out to be Pergrin, who had been to Mordor", p. 373, Trotter was Peregrin Boffin, standing in the same sort of relationship to Bilbo as did Frodo, but older than Frodo, and that running off into the wide world he had found his way to Mordor".)

Its interesting that this has come up today, because I had noted in reading LOTR today that Aragorn says to Merry and Pippin when they go charging in and almost fall in the well to follow the guide "while you have one." I know he explicitly warns Gandalf about entering Moria, but this appears to me to be another explicit prediction that they were soon going to lose their guide.

[scirocco]

Sorry, I should have said "captured there", not "tortured there". I think the actual torturing was done in Mordor, but Trotter was captured in Moria (and no doubt ill-treated in some manner) while searching for Gollum. We can see this in the development of the chapter The Ring Goes South:

'No, I know that. But there is a way - not over Cris-caron (Caradhras), as you are well aware.'
'Of course I am. But I am not going to risk that, until I am quite sure there is no other way. I shall think things out while the others rest and sleep.' (Note 23)

Note 23. In the margin, probably made at the time of writing of the manuscript, is a note: 'Trotter was caught there.'

HoME VI, The Ring Goes South

The idea of Trotter's capture survived the transition from hobbit-Trotter into Ranger-Trotter:

Note 6: Trotter is a Ranger - descendant of Elendil? - he is known to Bilbo, and Gandalf. He has previously been to Mordor and been tormented (caught in Moria).

HoME VII, Gandalf's Delay

The whole "tormenting of Trotter" idea is a hangover from an earlier idea, where hobbit-Trotter always wore shoes, because his feet had been maimed by the Dark Lord's servants:

Thus it was that Frodo learned how Trotter had tracked Gollum as he wandered southwards, through Fangorn Forest, and past the Dead Marshes, until he had himself been caught and imprisoned by the Dark Lord. 'Ever since I have worn shoes,' said Trotter with a shudder, and though he said no more Frodo knew that he had been tortured and his feet hurt in some way...

HoME VI, In the House of Elrond

You can't look for complete consistency in all this; why would the Dark Lord torture Trotter in Moria, for example? Perhaps he was simply caught there and brought to Mordor - but if so, why were his memories of the place so terrible? Still, it's interesting to see the sub-plots weaving in and out.

[/thread_hijack] :D

[Jnyusa]

Aragorn's fear for Gandalf also puzzles me because there is no reason why Aragorn should suspect the presence of a Balrog in Moria, unless it was rumored in Lórien and he knew the rumor. When they come before Galadriel she speaks about their fears confirmed that the dwarves had reawakened an ancient evil (too lazy to find exact quote). Still, the knowledge Aragorn seems to have of Moria seems without precendent.

Btw, Scirocco, that was also the quote I was thinking of when you mentioned Aragorn's fear - the evil memory quote. It is later, I believe, when they decide to take the path through Moria finally that Aragorn refers to the danger to Gandalf.

Jn

edit: sorry - cross posted!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thanks, scirocco.

Edited to add: that is a really good point about the "evil memory" not being explained in the published text, but relating back to the previous drafts.

[Túrin Turambar]

I always simply assumed that simply going into dark caverns full of Orcs was Aragorn's 'evil memory'.

[scirocco]

Quite possibly it was, although when you factor in a bit of British understatement, "quietly" and "very evil" means very Very EXTREMELY evil - more than I would have thought a tough hombre like Aragorn would have felt even on meeting some orcs in the dark. Perhaps he sensed the Balrog, without knowing what it was. Who knows.

But I wasn't trying to imply that "early-draft-Trotter" being captured and/or tortured necessarily means that "published-Aragorn" was similarly captured and/or tortured. My point was simply that, from a story-external perspective, here is another example of a theme from an early draft being carried over into the published work, even though details may have changed, and how examination of the early draft may shed some light on the published work.

[Roccondil]

My point was simply that, from a story-external perspective, here is another example of a theme from an early draft being carried over into the published work, even though details may have changed.

Yes, and a common feature of this way of working by Tolkien was that the meaning behind the words often changed significantly, although much of the wording remained the same.

I take the meaning from the published text to imply, as you suggest, scirocco, that Aragorn had sensed the presence of the Balrog in some way, although he obviously had not identifed the source of the evil.

[scirocco]

Yes, and a common feature of this way of working by Tolkien was that the meaning behind the words often changed significantly, although much of the wording remained the same.

Mmm, I think I was suggesting the opposite, i.e that meanings remained similar while details of wording changed and evolved. I know examples of both can be found. My impression of Tolkien, though, is that he had his "world picture" fairly well sussed out from the earliest days, and it did not change greatly even as he developed storylines and characters. (The notable exceptions being the Round World/Sun and Moon from the beginning - when he did decide to change, he didn't do things by halves!)

The Aragorn/Trotter capture was maybe more of a technical issue than a thematic one, and was perhaps an apple to the Rings' oranges.