Pride and Prejudice: Adaptations of Austen

[Meneltarma]

Now I want a *proper* recipe... that sounds wonderfully decadent!

[vison]

I think about the problem of keeping it fresh, myself. Given that they had no refrigerators as we know them! Still, they may have had an icehouse at Netherfield or in the neighbourhood there might have been an ice supplier they could buy from, although this was very rare in the early 1800's. Ice from Canada and America was actually shipped to England, but I can't recall offhand when that trade really began.

They would have had a "cold larder" where such things were kept, and it might have had ice in it. Often, there was no ice, though. People used to get food poisoning all the time, too, although it often wasn't recognized as food poisoning. It still isn't, as a matter of fact. Often when people have "the 24 hour flu" what they have is some form of food poisoning.

This is the kind of thing that fascinates me. It's fun to read about how housekeepers managed in those days.

[Padme]

And your defect is a propensity to hate every body

priceless.

And vanity is bad but pride is good.

And these people...mince pie....white soup...

And its funny on the bottom of the page it has an ad for mold control. I suspect its for the white soup.

[Cerin]

I see Ethel is posting in another thread so I hope she will drop back in here.

Ethel, I've so been enjoying your comments here (although I neglected to say so, so how would you know?); I feel as though you are our official tourguide through P&P.

I thought I would wait a couple more days past the holiday week, and then take up with the next section. It is getting harder to restrain myself from reading past the discussion point.

[Alatar]

Will catch up soon. I promise!

[Alatar]

Sorry to keep you all waiting. As usual, I'll give my own thoughts before reading others.

Lizzie truly is a delightful character particularly contrasted as she is with Miss Bingley, who is a thoroughly unlikeable person. She has all the worst traits imaginable. Her embarassing attempts to draw Darcy's attentions and her pique at his obvious infatuation with Lizzie are painful. Add to that her constant attempts to remind him of Lizzie's lower station makes her truly obnoxious. When she asks Lizzie to walk with her I believe she is playing a double game. She wants the advantage of having Lizzie draw Darcy's gaze, in the obvious belief that her own greater grace will thus be highlighted to him. Arrogant and mean spirited in the extreme. Her inability to remain civil only highlights this and her warmer manner once she learns that the girls are leaving is even more unpleasant in its insincerity.

Mrs. Bennet has dropped even further in my estimation. I certainly understand Mr. Bennets relief at the older girls return. Trapped between Mrs Bennets social climbing machinations and the younger girls inane twitterings it's no surprise that he would be longing for Lizzie and Janes company. I am delighted to see that Jane has recovered well, apart from Lizzie she seems to be the only other genuine person in the book. Well, Bingley seems to be fairly straightforward but again in that gormless Hugh Laurie sort of fashion.

Darcy is a much more interesting character. He's still arrogant, even to the point of deluding himself that Lizzie way be falling for him when the exact opposite is true. It's amusing to see his attempts at self-delusion and his helplessness to fight his own "inappropriate" fascination with Lizzie.

Hobby asked me before why I felt that arrogance was likeable. It's only likeable in an artless way. People who are cruel and arrogant are not likeable, but those whose arrogance is completely natural and artless are magnetic people. One of the most attractive qualities in a person is confidence and with confidence comes arrogance. In fact one could say that arrogance is simply the extreme of confidence. Darcy has that sort of artless arrogance that is appealing.

Now back to read the other's opinions!

Alatar

[Primula Baggins]

Great comments, Alatar. Bingley could have been well played by a young Hugh Laurie, who did gormless brilliantly but was capable of flashes of intelligence and sincerity. And that's also a great insight into Darcy. Judging from what we've seen of her social circle thus far, Lizzie has certainly never known such a man before.

[vison]

I think, imho only of course, that too much is made of Lizzie's supposedly "lower class-ness". It is true that Darcy is grander than Lizzy, but he is only richer, which is all I will say for fear of spoilers. Miss Bingley sneering at Lizzie is not quite sneering at Lizzie for being "low class" because if Lizzie WAS low class, the Bennett girls would NEVER have been invited to Netherfield. The Bingleys are not QUITE as "top drawer" as Mr. Darcy, either. Why do I say that? Because Mr. Bingley does not have an "estate", he is not a "landed gentleman". If he was, he wouldn't be at Netherfield, he'd be wherever his estate was. I suspect that the Bingley family is a "new" family, one recently made wealthy, perhaps by Mr. Bingley's father or grandfather. Miss Bingley is not 100% sure of her own status and not 100% at ease in Mr. Darcy's company. Her constant denigration of Lizzy comes as much from her own insecurity as anything else, I think. And she sees Lizzy as a rival from the first second they meet. Lizzy is an extremely attractive girl.

Lizzy is a lady, the daughter of a gentleman. Her mother is an unfortunate drag upon her and Jane (and Mr. Bennett), but fools are found in every social level. If you ever read Persuasion, you will see one of Austen's greatest fools in Sir Walter Elliott, a man who makes Mrs. Bennett seem like an elegant rocket scientist. Mrs. Bennett has "low" connections, which is certainly unfortunate. But the family is obviously part of "society" in the neighbourhood, no one expresses any surprise that they are invited to balls and parties, etc. They are certainly "above" the Lucas family, for instance.

Jane Austen's people are not aristocrats, but "gentry". They might have aristocratic connections, but as just as likely to have connections in the other direction. English "society" had a fair amount of mobility, actually, which is something people forget. It was possible for a family to "rise" and it was just as possible for a family to "fall". Wealth counted, but the wealth that REALLY counted was LAND.

It is telling, to me, that Mr. Darcy is such a close friend of Mr. Bingley. There are several reasons, one of which is that Mr. Darcy can boss Bingley around. But why, if Mr. Darcy is so hotsy-totsy, would he be a friend to Bingley at all? Mr. Darcy is not an aristocrat, but a wealthy landed gentleman. Somehow Bingley came into his orbit and was found suitable as a friend. I don't recall that their friendship is explained, although I could be wrong. Likely they met at school.

Anyway, I think it tends to mislead the reader to make too much of Lizzy's "class". She is not really below Mr. Darcy in the social order, since a woman takes her status from either her father or her husband. Her mother's folly is more of an issue than her origins. Getting on to spoiler ground again, so will close.

[Frelga]

A few quick comments.

One of the most attractive qualities in a person is confidence and with confidence comes arrogance. In fact one could say that arrogance is simply the extreme of confidence. Darcy has that sort of artless arrogance that is appealing

Actually, my observation has been that people who are truly confident come across as open and sincere. No need to squeeze into your shell when you can face the world without fear. It is insecurity that is arrogant. (Conversely, someitimes people's perception of a person's superiority makes them react defensively and label him/her as arrogant, but that's a different story)

I think Darcy is introverted and insecure in society and hides behind the mask of bored arrogance. I've seen a few people like that around the boards, too.

On a tangent, I like how Austen turns the tables on romantic convention here. Darcy is your Bayronic hero - dark, disenchanted and depressing. Yet this "interesting" quality of his does not attract Lizzy, only lowers her esteem of him.

[Lizzy] is not really below Mr. Darcy in the social order, since a woman takes her status from either her father or her husband. Her mother's folly is more of an issue than her origins.

I think her mother's connections who are "in trade" are part of the issue, but I agree, the real problem is the mother's "ill breeding", that is her poor manners, not her status.

[Padme]

Jane Austen's people are not aristocrats, but "gentry".

Yet I often feel like they are trying so hard to impress the real aristocrats that they forget they are 'gentry'. I can't count how many people I know in real life like that.

Oh and I find it adorable how dotting ( spelling) Lizzie is towards her sister.

[Primula Baggins]

Yes, Lizzie and Darcy are of the same class, which was far more important than their relative levels within that class; comvention was that a gentleman was a gentleman and must be treated as such, at least in terms of social interactions, even by gentlemen from higher drawers or aristocrats.

This was why the Royal Navy of the time came in for some criticism, though, because a very capable sailor of humble birth could be promoted to midshipman, rise through the ranks (becoming a gentleman as soon as he was made a lieutenant), and die an admiral on a landed estate. It did happen (in fact, one such admiral had been flogged round the fleet during his days before the mast).

But this social mobility, valuing ability over birth at least when the ability was proven undeniabily in battle, was one of the things Jane Austen loved about the Navy, a love she expresses very openly in Persuasion; she was no snob. (One of her brothers was in the Navy and eventually did become an admiral.)

[Cerin]

Darcy is a much more interesting character. He's still arrogant, even to the point of deluding himself that Lizzie way be falling for him when the exact opposite is true.

Alatar, could you explain what led to your impression that Darcy thinks Lizzy may be falling for him? That was a new thought to me.

I think Mr. Bingley is quite nice, but as you say, not terribly interesting. I agree that Darcy is a much more interesting person.

I think, imho only of course, that too much is made of Lizzie's supposedly "lower class-ness".

Yes, when you look at Miss Bingley's comments to goad Darcy about the supposed upcoming marriage, they all involve the unfortunate connections. So it isn't so much class as perceived quality and connections, I'd say.

Regarding gentry v. aristocracy, what would make someone an aristocrat? A title?

I think Darcy is introverted and insecure in society and hides behind the mask of bored arrogance.

That's interesting. I've been reacting to him differently, and viewing his arrogance as more of a sign of a genuine confidence plus his focus on having a broad understanding of things, which results in his initial disdain of those whom he perceives do not.

He really is quite a complex character.

[Primula Baggins]

Yes, Cerin, having a title (or, I believe, being the child of a titled person, even if not the heir) makes one an aristocrat.

Darcy is indeed a fascinating character.

[Alatar]

Darcy is a much more interesting character. He's still arrogant, even to the point of deluding himself that Lizzie way be falling for him when the exact opposite is true.

Alatar, could you explain what led to your impression that Darcy thinks Lizzy may be falling for him? That was a new thought to me.

My thought behind this comment is based on the following in chapter 12. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this but it seems to suggest that he is transferring his own feelings to Lizzie. It was a general impression, and not one I considered very deeply.

To Mr. Darcy it was welcome intelligence: Elizabeth had been at Netherfield long enough. She attracted him more than he liked -- and Miss Bingley was uncivil to her, and more teasing than usual to himself. He wisely resolved to be particularly careful that no sign of admiration should now escape him, nothing that could elevate her with the hope of influencing his felicity; sensible that if such an idea had been suggested, his behaviour during the last day must have material weight in confirming or crushing it. Steady to his purpose, he scarcely spoke ten words to her through the whole of Saturday, and though they were at one time left by themselves for half an hour, he adhered most conscientiously to his book, and would not even look at her.

[Primula Baggins]

Isn't it priceless that he's sure the slightest sign of interest from him would bring an instant response from her? But of course, he's very rich (ten thousand pounds a year was about equal to a million U.S. dollars a year now, plus the landed property; and many luxuries cost much less then, not to mention taxes being much, much lower). He's very used to being pursued simply for that.

[Cerin]

Thanks, Alatar! Yes, isn't it just great that he is being so careful not to betray the slightest interest, and Lizzie couldn't care less either way.

[Frelga]

That's interesting. I've been reacting to him differently, and viewing his arrogance as more of a sign of a genuine confidence plus his focus on having a broad understanding of things, which results in his initial disdain of those whom he perceives do not.

I agree that he thinks of himself as quite superior to the country society.

As for broadness of his understanding... I think it doesn't extend to relationships. He's friends with Bingley, but Bingley is such a lovable puppy.

I give Darcy a huge credit for seeing through Miss Bingley's manipulations and handling her with such skill and patience. She must have driven him bonkers, interrupting his reading every second and bugging him while he was writing - that was a priceless scene.

Alatar, I just realized that in my reading I thought in this sentence from your quote "He wisely resolved to be particularly careful that no sign of admiration should now escape him, nothing that could elevate her with the hope of influencing his felicity; sensible that if such an idea had been suggested, his behaviour during the last day must have material weight in confirming or crushing it" "she" referred to Miss Bingley. That is, I thought Darcy didn't want her to think that he's falling for Lizzy. But of course you are correct, "she" = Lizzy.

I agree with Prim, Darcy must be used to being pursued for his money and status. Of course he assumes that someone as "inferior" as Lizzy must jump at the slightest chance.

I wonder if Miss Bingley's teasing did influence him on some level, even if he didn't admit it to himself.

My thanks to Prim and vison for explaining the fine points of Austen'd society.

[Ethel]

Again, let me thank the "Austen virgins" for their most interesting comments. For me, Pride and Prejudice is a very great pleasure, but it has mostly been a solitary one. This is a delight.

I hope it's okay if I break my responses into several posts rather than creating a Mega Post...

When Mrs. Bennet embarrasses herself in Chapter 9, I thought that I might not have realized how untoward her comments were if the author had not described the reactions of the others. The things she said didn't seem so terribly outlandish, more just somewhat clumsy and revealing of her self-absorption and lack of social grace. And yet within the context of these rigorous standards and keen scrutiny, such missteps become glaringly obvious and consequential.

No? But Mrs Bennet says such absurd things. For instance (speaking of Jane): "I often tell my other girls they are nothing to her." And:

"Yes, indeed," cried Mrs Bennet, offended by his manner of mentioning a country neighborhood. "I assure you there is quite as much of that going on in the country as in town."

Everyone is mortified by this. The reason, I think - and I freely admit I could be wrong - is that the emphasized "quite as much of that" - almost seems to allude to sexual misbehavior. Not Mrs Bennet's meaning, I feel sure, but doesn't it read that way?

I have to confess to enjoying disliking Miss Bingley more and more. She is so pathetic in her attentions to Darcy, and couldn't take a worse approach if she tried. It's interesting that Elizabeth is doing all the right things, but not out of adeptness or contrivance, but just as a result of her personality and genuine lack of concern for Darcy. It's delicious!

Indeed it is. The scene where Elizabeth determines Darcy's fault to be "a propensity to hate every body" and Darcy shoots back that her fault is "willfully to misunderstand them" - is one of my favorites. Darcy is flirting, but Elizabeth is just being her witty self and trying to amuse herself through a tiresome evening.

I absolutely loved the incident on the path, which again demonstrated that wonderful aspect of Elizabeth's character which I had identified as confidence earlier, but which I see is more than that. Elizabeth is so sure of and true to her own principles that the genuine rudeness of Mrs. Hurst is not able to elevate to a level of importance to her. I just love her for this:

But Elizabeth, who had not the least inclination to remain with them, laughingly answered, -- 'No, no; stay where you are. You are charmingly grouped, and appear to uncommon advantage. The picturesque would be spoilt by admitting a fourth. Good-bye.'
She then rain gaily off, rejoicing ...

Yes, Elizabeth is an impressive creature, isn't she? She is comfortable in her own skin, and cares too little for the others to allow them to offend her. Regarding "the picturesque", let me share the end note in my edition:

Elizabeth refers jokingly to the contemporary cult of the picturesque, a fashion in both landscape appreciation and garden design which emphasized a painterly aesthetic - 'natural,' asymmetrical lines rather than classical symmetry - and which took particular pleasure in, for example, ivy-clad ruins. It is particularly associated with the travel writings of William Gilpin. The allusion here is to Gilpin's Observations, Relative Chiefly to Picturesque Beauty...particularly the Mountains, and Lakes of Cumberland, and Westmorland (1786), where, in his comments on the prints included in the book, he explains picturesque principles through his 'doctrine of grouping larger cattle': 'Two will hardly combine ... But with three, you are almost sure of a good group ... Four introduce a new difficulty in grouping ... The only way in which they will group well, is to unite three ... and to remove the fourth'

So you see, Elizabeth is not only being gracious and charming in the face of the rudeness of the others - she's also making a little joke, to herself, about them being, well, cattle.

[Ethel]

Lizzie truly is a delightful character particularly contrasted as she is with Miss Bingley, who is a thoroughly unlikeable person. She has all the worst traits imaginable. Her embarassing attempts to draw Darcy's attentions and her pique at his obvious infatuation with Lizzie are painful. Add to that her constant attempts to remind him of Lizzie's lower station makes her truly obnoxious. When she asks Lizzie to walk with her I believe she is playing a double game. She wants the advantage of having Lizzie draw Darcy's gaze, in the obvious belief that her own greater grace will thus be highlighted to him. Arrogant and mean spirited in the extreme. Her inability to remain civil only highlights this and her warmer manner once she learns that the girls are leaving is even more unpleasant in its insincerity.

Oh, you have Miss Bingley to a T. She definitely wants Darcy for herself. Darcy won't look up from his book. She knows he is interested in Elizabeth, so she asks Elizabeth to join her in a stroll about the room. Darcy does look up at that. Miss Bingley hopes her own elegant dress, figure, and walk will beguile Darcy's eye. Instead, Darcy is immediately drawn into a flirtatious conversation with Elizabeth. One could almost feel sorry for Caroline if she weren't such a... well... Miss Austen wouldn't approve of the word I was inclined to use.

Darcy is a much more interesting character. He's still arrogant, even to the point of deluding himself that Lizzie way be falling for him when the exact opposite is true. It's amusing to see his attempts at self-delusion and his helplessness to fight his own "inappropriate" fascination with Lizzie.

Ah, yes, you begin to see precisely what is so wonderful about Austen. She is a master of irony. She does not tell us that Darcy and Lizzie are feeling nearly opposite emotions in each other's company - she shows us, and in a very entertaining way.

[Primula Baggins]

Ethel, about the picturesque—I never knew that about three versus four cattle! That's hilarious. Thanks for sharing it!