The Moral Universe of Middle-earth

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Good points, Brigand and soli.

N.E., I'm glad that you discovered the original moral universe threads. They were truly mighty discussions.

[Frelga]

One of the most morally ambiguous aspects of Tolkien's Middle-earth is the conduct of the wood-elves in The Hobbit.

I apologize for commenting when I don't have the time to elaborate, but I can think of many aspects that are much more ambiguous than this one. When I have time (ha!) I intend to write a long and windy on gaps in Tolkien morality.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

You better do it before I leave next Friday, missee!!!!

[Frelga]

I'll try.

Meanwhile, here's something that I posted on TORC today, in response to Pearly Di, who observed on the depth of spiritual undertones in LOTR and the lack of religion in Middle-Earth.

In one sense it's logical. In Middle-Earth, belief is not required. Elves and some Men know from first-hand experience that Valar and Maiar really exist and function in the physical space. They've met them. Some Maiar still walk among them. Even the afterlife is not a mystery. As Pratchett said about his own polytheistic Discworld, under the circumstances, believing in gods (or Valar, in ME) would be like believing in the postman.

But something else struck me just now. Even though Ilúvatar is indisputably the One God of Middle-Earth, he does not require worship. He does not need prayers or sacrifices, Elves and Men do not build temples to him, there are no priests serving Eru, no one is going around with pamphlets imploring you to let Eru into your life. It's only Sauron who demands to be worshiped.

Just a random thought...

[rwhen]

Voronwë - that is in case I don't post with you again before you leave on your magical trip. Have a great holiday....

Move along, nothing to see here except me stalking Frelga and Voronwë!!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Even though Ilúvatar is indisputably the One God of Middle-Earth, he does not require worship. He does not need prayers or sacrifices, Elves and Men do not build temples to him, there are no priests serving Eru, no one is going around with pamphlets imploring you to let Eru into your life. It's only Sauron who demands to be worshiped.

Just a random thought...

But a good one. I'll even take it a step further. The only other "worship" that he describes (at least that I can think of offhand) is that Melkor himself demands to be worshipped (if the Tale of Adenal can be believed) and it is Melkor (the Lord of Darkness) that Sauron has the Numenoreans worship, not himself. And (at least in the legends of the Numenoreans) Eru responded with swift and terrible punishment to the Men who worshipped Melkor:

Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.

What does this say about Tolkien's opinion of organized religion (despite his unquestioned devout Catholicism)?

rwhen, But I'm sure I'll see you around before I leave at the end of next week. Nice hat!

[solicitr]

In part what it says is that Tolkien couldn't countenance his 'good' peoples engaging in any religious practice which differed from the prescriptions of the Council of Trent!

No, seriously, Tolkien was very troubled by the problem of the 'noble pagan' (so were the medievals). So on the whole he punted. Not entirely- the uncorrupted Numenoreans had an annual ceremonial offering to Eru, and a similar sort of festival was happening on Taniquetil when Melkor and Ungoliant spoiled the party.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

But that's not really worshipping. That's more celebrating, in my book. And that's pretty cool.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Turning back to the question of the wood-elves in The Hobbit, Rateliff makes a good argument that their conduct is consistent with that of "Fairies" (such as those which populate Jonathan Strange, though of course Rateliff does not mention that book).

[Primula Baggins]

I agree with Frelga's point. If everyone knows for a fact that Eru created Middle-earth and is in charge, that eliminates any need for the trappings of faith. I don't need weekly reminders to make me believe the sun is going to come up in the morning, or to be sure and obey the law of gravity.

And as for worship—do human beings worship what is present and real, or what is absent (or at least not perceptible to the senses) and hoped-for? I think we tend to take the present and real for granted. If we're well brought up, we treat our parents and our leaders with respect, but we don't fling praises at them all the time; that would be silly. Respect and (insofar as reason and conscience allow) obedience are the tribute we offer instead.

[Frelga]

Snap, I wish I agreed with Prim's point. But people have been known to worship the sun and believe that they can defy gravity (very briefly, of course).

What struck me yesterday is that Eru does not need anything from anyone. Not just the trappings of worldly religion, but even adherence to any particular code of conduct is not imposed. He IS, whether his children remember him or not (and they seem to mind the Valar more than him, being more familiar with that group).

Also, IIRC, the afterlife does not threaten any particular punishment or reward; sinners are not turned over to Melkor. The Valar, presumably with backing from Ilúvatar himself, interfere directly only when the humanity is at the end of its rope because of a threat from another Vala.

[Primula Baggins]

Well, we are not so far apart as all that, Frelga; people worshiped the sun because they didn't know what it was, whereas I do know (and know that it is nothing supernatural or even unusual). And I know I can't defy gravity because I know natural laws are immutable (and could give the equation for this one). The old sun worshipers were worshiping something that was unknown and mysterious—to them.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

An interesting article came to my attention comparing the moral universe of The Lord of the Rings to that of The Children of Húrin:

Empty Your Heart Of Its Mortal Dream

[Voronwë the Faithful]

One of the most morally ambiguous aspects of Tolkien's Middle-earth is the conduct of the wood-elves in The Hobbit. I'm thinking particularly of their appearing and disappearing in the forest, while the dwarves and Bilbo are starving. This action seems downright cruel to me. Yes, they considered the dwarves ancient foes, and interlopers, but treating them this way has always struck me as just plain wrong. Yes I know that these are the lesser elves that had never seen the light of Aman, but they are still supposed to be Good People. What point is Tolkien making here - if any - by having the wood-elves act in this manner?

In light of the upcoming movie, I thought this comment was worth revisiting.

[yovargas]

General question, since I can't recall the answer and I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you'd know : did Tolkien have the broader mythology that eventually become LOTR/Sil in mind when writing The Hobbit? Did he "know that these are the lesser elves that had never seen the light of Aman" when he wrote those scenes? Or did he do all the tying together later?

[Passdagas the Brown]

One of the most morally ambiguous aspects of Tolkien's Middle-earth is the conduct of the wood-elves in The Hobbit. I'm thinking particularly of their appearing and disappearing in the forest, while the dwarves and Bilbo are starving. This action seems downright cruel to me. Yes, they considered the dwarves ancient foes, and interlopers, but treating them this way has always struck me as just plain wrong. Yes I know that these are the lesser elves that had never seen the light of Aman, but they are still supposed to be Good People. What point is Tolkien making here - if any - by having the wood-elves act in this manner?

In light of the upcoming movie, I thought this comment was worth revisiting.

When is it established by Tolkien that the elves are "good people" in the sense of following ethical principles that are generally humanistic, such as "helping someone in need? or "mercy?""

My sense of Tolkien's elves is that they were, to re-shape Sam's quote "somewhat above our likes and dislikes, including our morals." Yes, they don't behave all that badly for the most part, but they are primarily concerned with natural beauty and preservation, IMO, and not necessarily with the advancement of an ethical society.

IMO, they are simply a little more human than the Ents. Not altogether on anyone's side in terms of human relationships, though opposed to the destructive discord of Sauron and his master. They generally represent the fading beauty of the Earth. If keeping that beauty going requires the death of a few dwarves (and humans or hobbits), so be it. If keeping that beauty going requires allying with those dwarves and humans and hobbits to defy and defeat the common enemy (Sauron), then so be it.

Which to me explains why the Half-Elven Elrond seems to be the most humanistic of them all...Even Galadriel is fey and terrible, and one could imagine her mercy having limits.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

General question, since I can't recall the answer and I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you'd know : did Tolkien have the broader mythology that eventually become LOTR/Sil in mind when writing The Hobbit? Did he "know that these are the lesser elves that had never seen the light of Aman" when he wrote those scenes? Or did he do all the tying together later?

The short answer is "yes," but as is usually the case, it probably is more complicated than that. Certainly, the mythology was largely in place by the time The Hobbit was written, and their abundant direct references to the mythology in the book (and even more in the earlier drafts). But it wasn't really meant to be part of the mythology; it was lighter bedtime fare for his children. As for the specific of whether he knew that the Woodland Elves were lesser elves that had never seen the light of Aman, I would say absolutely yes. But at the same time, the Elves of Rivendell in the book hardly resemble the high and mighty Noldorin Elves that they would become.

[Passdagas the Brown]

The elves all fight the aesthetic fight for Middle Earth. It's just that the "good" ones realize that there's a higher force than theirs determining that they will lose.

The bad ones reject the "long defeat" and cling to the aesthetic beauties of Arda, as did Fëanor, and as does Thranduil (and seemingly, the elves of Mirkwood in general). They do not "teach" the newcomers (or even care about them much), and resist departure when the reign of the newcomers (men - the Secondborn) arrives.

The good ones do not cling to the Earth. They submit to the will of Ilúvatar and the nature of the music, and pass into the West. They teach and care for the newcomers in the early years, but then pass on when their preordained time is over.

In short, the elves contain multitudes. Some like Elrond faded gracefully, but others like Fëanor left kicking and screaming. While some like Celeborn and Galadriel clinged for a while, becoming isolated and somewhat intolerant of other races (the hubby moreso than the wife), but eventually saw wisdom and accepted the order of things. But they all faded eventually, and ushered in the world we live and type in today!

In that context, I see no reason why the elves of Mirkwood are an anomaly. They clung to their domain, and probably welcomed the demise of those ruinous dwarves. Today, they're either still living behind flowers or under rocks, or have learned the error of their ways and fled West to join their kin.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Or are making cookies.

Sorry for the flippant response. I agree with what you say, although it would be interesting to place Thingol within that context.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Making cookies inside a tree, yes. That's not flippant - it's true! The Keebler's are likely a branch of Silvan elves, I would say. They definitely haven't seen the light of Aman, that's for sure!

Thingol, I believe, does indeed fall under the category of an elf that clinged to Middle Earth, and prized "aesthetic values" over "ethical values," which was part of what contributed to his downfall.

In any event, I am curious to understand why John Rateliff doesn't place the Mirkwood elves under this framework? Yes, they do indeed behave more like Strange's "fairies," or even Lord Dunsany's elves, but I don't think their ethical or moral behavior is inconsistent with the characterization of elves in Tolkien's broader mythos.