Republican Presidential Candidates

[River]

Apparently McCain originally wanted Joe Lieberman on the ticket.

Now THAT would have made for a very interesting race, indeed.

No kidding.

[BrianIsSmilingAtYou]

She was not only a drag on McCain, she killed his campaign

I disagree with this. I think that McCain killed his own campaign with his "I'm suspending my campaign two days after saying the fundamentals of the economy are strong" response to the economic crisis. I think the American people saw him as someone they were not willing to trust after that.

But this is all just rehashing old ground.

McCain made that statement September 24. If you look at the chart posted by Lord M., the large divergence in the polls had already appeared by then.

The "campaign suspension" was just a media sound-bite, a failed attempt to jolt the zombie back to life that backfired.

In any case, despite the announcement, the campaign was never suspended. Ads continued to run on the days during the supposed "suspension" of the campaign, and McCain campaign spokespersons continued to appear on TV.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200809260009

BrianIs AtYou

[vison]

She was not only a drag on McCain, she killed his campaign

I disagree with this. I think that McCain killed his own campaign with his "I'm suspending my campaign two days after saying the fundamentals of the economy are strong" response to the economic crisis. I think the American people saw him as someone they were not willing to trust after that.

But this is all just rehashing old ground.

You're right, it is rehashing.

But the other thing is, the "suspension" was just the last straw, Mrs. Palin was a whole bale of straw all by herself.

I suspect that by the time 2012 rolls around she will be either largely forgotten, or will be the moderator of a quiz show on cable TV.

[halplm]

Um...Hal, you want our leaders to believe that they are on a "mission from God?" That when they wage war, it is, in fact, decreed by God? A holy war, if you will?

Like a jihad?

That's not what she said. She was stating, that we should pray we're doing the right thing. I pray we're doing the right thing all the time.

It is wrong, wrong, wrong times infinity for any politician to inject religion into national concerns. Americans all condem Islamic holy wars or religious leaders setting policy, but somehow it's okay if it's a Christian?

How is asking people to pray for guidance, and for guidance for our leaders, injecting religion into national concerns?

For that matter, why is injecting religion into national concerns a problem? Oh, that's right, no establishment of a national religion... well wait, that doesn't have anything to do with "injectiong religion into national concerns..." If our leaders say they look to God for guidance, that is in no way inappropriate. I, for one, hope they always do.

[Ellienor]

If our leaders say they look to God for guidance, that is in no way inappropriate. I, for one, hope they always do.

It's all well and good if your leaders ascribe to the same God you do. However, there are many different versions of God and He tells different peoples different things. And how does God provide guidance, exactly?

For instance, Yahweh favored the Jews and helped them by helping them triumph over oppressors. However, I'm sure the oppressors' Gods told the oppressors the same thing, i.e., that they were the favored. At that point, you are merely armies for Gods that are at war.

I don't recall Jesus being all that belligerent, actually, from my study (many years! of the bible, when I was attending Catholic school.) So if Jesus was guiding us, I'm not sure that He would be providing instructions to bomb other people.

[halplm]

If Jesus were president, I don't think we'd have any problems.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I moved the side discussion in this thread about health care reform to the thread on health care reform where it belonged in the first place.

[Lidless]

That's all we need halplm, another president trying to outdo his dad.

[Frelga]

I don't know, would Jesus be good for business? I recall him openly advocating giving up all your possessions, and there was that incident with the small businessmen at the Temple. And what about health insurance industry, with all the free health care he was wont to give away? And what kind of strong foreign policy can you expect from someone who preaches turning the other cheek? I'm afraid Jesus is much too far to the left to ever gather much traction on the campaign trail.

Besides, is this country ready to elect a practicing Jew as a President?

[Pearly Di]

If Jesus were president, I don't think we'd have any problems.

First: Jesus eschewed mere earthly power while he was here on earth.

Second: if he were President, he would upset all kinds of people left, right and centre. Especially the powerful people. Which is pretty much what he did during his three-year career.

I don't know, would Jesus be good for business? I recall him openly advocating giving up all your possessions, and there was that incident with the small businessmen at the Temple. And what about health insurance industry, with all the free health care he was wont to give away? And what kind of strong foreign policy can you expect from someone who preaches turning the other cheek? I'm afraid Jesus is much too far to the left to ever gather much traction on the campaign trail.

Heh. I'm not one for claiming Jesus was 'left' or 'right', by the way (the terms are a nonsense for his historical context and, besides, I believe that he transcends any boundaries) but ... yes.

Besides, is this country ready to elect a practicing Jew as a President?

Frelga, in all seriousness ... would that actually be a problem?

[JewelSong]

Di, the US has never had a serious candidate for higher office who was Jewish. And we've only had one Catholic President.

That is one of the reasons it would have been so interesting if McCain had chosen Joe Lieberman as his running mate.

[Erunáme]

I don't know, would Jesus be good for business? I recall him openly advocating giving up all your possessions, and there was that incident with the small businessmen at the Temple. And what about health insurance industry, with all the free health care he was wont to give away? And what kind of strong foreign policy can you expect from someone who preaches turning the other cheek? I'm afraid Jesus is much too far to the left to ever gather much traction on the campaign trail.

Did you happen to read Michael Moore's open letter to Christians? I'm reminded of it when I read your post. An excerpt:

I go on to ask, "Would Jesus be a capitalist?" Would he belong to a hedge fund? Would he sell short? Would he approve of a system that has allowed the richest 1% to have more financial wealth than the 95% under them combined?

I have come to believe that there is no getting around the fact that capitalism is opposite everything that Jesus (and Moses and Mohammed and Buddha) taught. All the great religions are clear about one thing: It is evil to take the majority of the pie and leave what's left for everyone to fight over. Jesus said that the rich man would have a very hard time getting into heaven. He told us that we had to be our brother's and sister's keepers and that the riches that did exist were to be divided fairly. He said that if you failed to house the homeless and feed the hungry, you'd have a hard time finding the pin code to the pearly gates.

<snip>

It doesn't seem you can call yourself a Capitalist AND a Christian -- because you cannot love your money AND love your neighbor when you are denying your neighbor the ability to see a doctor just so you can have a better bottom line.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mikes ... hael-moore

I thought it was an interesting letter. And he answers charges of hypocrisy about 2 minutes into this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqRvpBqEgCE

And I do agree with what others have said. Everything would definitely not be hunky dory if Jesus were president.

I personally wish that candidates didn't have to push forward that they're church-going folk. It really, really bothers me. It's espousing this idea that being a Christian is a prerequisite for having any sort of morals. Obviously that's not the case. I tend to think that we'll have a Jewish person or a gay person elected before we do an atheist.

[Lidless]

As soon as a politician believes X is part of God's plan that's the end of the debate for them. They will stop listening. Politicians need to listen and to think, not to believe.

As for Jesus becoming President...

http://www.eclectica.org/v4n4/brown_christ.html

One presumes instead of feeding the 5,000 a Republican version would be to give the few loaves and fishes to wealthy people and hope it trickles down.

[JewelSong]

Luke 16:13 - 15 (From "The Message" translation)

Jesus went on to make these comments:

If you're honest in small things,
you'll be honest in big things;
If you're a crook in small things,
you'll be a crook in big things.
If you're not honest in small jobs,
who will put you in charge of the store?
No worker can serve two bosses:
He'll either hate the first and love the second
Or adore the first and despise the second.
You can't serve both God and the Bank.

When the Pharisees, a money-obsessed bunch, heard him say these things, they rolled their eyes, dismissing him as hopelessly out of touch. So Jesus spoke to them: "You are masters at making yourselves look good in front of others, but God knows what's behind the appearance.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Di, the US has never had a serious candidate for higher office who was Jewish. And we've only had one Catholic President.

That is one of the reasons it would have been so interesting if McCain had chosen Joe Lieberman as his running mate.

Lieberman was in fact already a candidate for Vice President, in 2000, as Al Gore's running mate. I don't think that anyone has suggested that the fact that he was Jewish contributed to Gore's loss; on the contrary, it probably helped Gore turn Florida into a virtual tie.

Still, I think it is fair to say that a serious Jewish candidate for president would face at least as many obstacles as an African-American one or a female one, and probably more. At least Obama and Clinton could both say that they were Christians.

[Túrin Turambar]

A Jewish Presidential candidate is an interesting hypothetical. Given that a Catholic and African-American have now won the Presidency I certainly think that it's possible for a Jew to as well. I'd give them better odds than an open atheist.

I think Lieberman was a boost to the 2000 Democratic ticket, although it's hard to gauge just what affect the VP candidate has overall. Weak VP candidates (eg. Quayle, Palin) can damage a ticket's chances, but strong ones (eg. Benstein) don't necessarily seem to help it.

As to anti-semitism, I'm optimistic that it is in decline (although given its remarkable ability to kick around in the west until today even when Jews have been living and working there since the Middle Ages I'm cautious). At the very least I rarely hear anti-semitic remarks from young people, recent immigrants of Middle Eastern background excepted. In Australia at least I have no doubt that traditional anti-aboriginal and anti-Asian prejudices will continue into the next generation, but anti-semites seem to be dying off outside fringe neo-nazi groups and Islamic hardliners.

[Frelga]

Lieberman was in fact already a candidate for Vice President, in 2000, as Al Gore's running mate. I don't think that anyone has suggested that the fact that he was Jewish contributed to Gore's loss; on the contrary, it probably helped Gore turn Florida into a virtual tie.

Really, V? I have always been convinced that Lieberman's religion was one of the reasons Gore's sure- fire candidacy failed. That even though Lieberman's socially conservtive position is quite close to the socially conservative Christian right.

Di, I uses the term "left" not to imply that Jesus would side with any particular modern movement, but to suggest that his record would caused him to be labeled leftist and socialist by the very groups that invoke his name most loudly. Seriously, can you see a regular human candidate running on the Jesus agenda as outlined in the Gospels?

[halplm]

My joke, about Jesus being president, was intended to mean if he could be elected president, we would have dealt with all the problems that would cause him to not be elected... thus the would would be a much better place in general.

As for Michael Moore's complete misunderstanding of everything... Capitalism is not about loving money. Capitalism, and believing it is the best form of economic prosperity, is understanding that by our very nature, we are greedy as human beings. The best way for everyone to prosper is to reward hard work and good ideas with wealth, as that is what most everyone wants. In an idealized capitalistic society, the only people that would not be sucessful (reletively of course) would be those that were lazy or unwilling to better themselves (others that had bad luck or were unable, would of course be helped by others).

Being Christian and a Capitalist at the same time is not a contradiction in any way. In fact, what better way to help more people than to have the means to do so?

[JewelSong]

My joke, about Jesus being president, was intended to mean if he could be elected president, we would have dealt with all the problems that would cause him to not be elected... thus the would would be a much better place in general.

Oh, I think most of us knew you were joking, Hal - but it certainly sparked an interesting discussion.

As for Michael Moore's complete misunderstanding of everything...

Everything? Really? Everything?

Being Christian and a Capitalist at the same time is not a contradiction in any way.

I kind of disagree with this, but right now I don't have enough time to spell out why.

In fact, what better way to help more people than to have the means to do so?

Because being a Capitalist means that you want to keep a good portion of it for yourself - and keep making more of it?

[yovargas]

Because being a Capitalist means that you want to keep a good portion of it for yourself - and keep making more of it?

Umm, no it doesn't. Capitalism is just about free markets. Free market means you're free to give it away what you make if you feel like it.