The 2012 US Election
- Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
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I do think Biden "won." I doubt that it will matter; I think people are waiting for the next presidential debate. But I came away (again) admiring Biden for his genuineness. I guess I'd rather have someone misstep because they're honest than because they're not.
(That doesn't mean I don't think there were any missteps.)
I do think Biden succeeded in boxing Ryan in on some points that are important to the middle class, women, and people who want the wars to end. I thought his explanation of why he, as a Catholic, does not try to impose his beliefs on every woman in America was pretty strong. And threw Ryan's different belief—that he as a Catholic [MAN] ought to do so—into pretty strong relief.
Whichever position is more morally admirable and consistent, I think I know which one will appeal to more American women, Catholic and otherwise.
(That doesn't mean I don't think there were any missteps.)
I do think Biden succeeded in boxing Ryan in on some points that are important to the middle class, women, and people who want the wars to end. I thought his explanation of why he, as a Catholic, does not try to impose his beliefs on every woman in America was pretty strong. And threw Ryan's different belief—that he as a Catholic [MAN] ought to do so—into pretty strong relief.
Whichever position is more morally admirable and consistent, I think I know which one will appeal to more American women, Catholic and otherwise.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Biden missed the chance, though, to say--after Ryan had said, "I think decisions on abortion should be made by people who have been elected by the voters"--"SO, what you're saying is, if you want abortion no longer to be an option for women in difficult circumstances with a pregnancy they can't handle, you should vote for Romney/Ryan. If you want women to have the freedom to make decisions about their own lives and futures, you should vote for Obama/Biden."
I can't watch these debates, though, actually. What I do is follow the Guardian's live blog and watch or listen to bits as my courage waxes and wanes.
I can't watch these debates, though, actually. What I do is follow the Guardian's live blog and watch or listen to bits as my courage waxes and wanes.
“Wilbur never forgot Charlotte. Although he loved her children and grandchildren dearly, none of the new spiders ever quite took her place in his heart. She was in a class by herself. It is not often that someone comes along who is a true friend and a good writer. Charlotte was both.” E. B. White, who must have had vison in mind. There's a reason why we kept putting the extra i in her name in our minds!
- Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
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I know the feeling.
BUt unfortunately, as far as Biden went is as far as anyone is going to go, these days, on that subject. And to train up a vine, you nudge it; you don't cut it off at the root because it's not growing in quite the right direction. As you know, Bob.
(Bob? Sorry.)
BUt unfortunately, as far as Biden went is as far as anyone is going to go, these days, on that subject. And to train up a vine, you nudge it; you don't cut it off at the root because it's not growing in quite the right direction. As you know, Bob.
(Bob? Sorry.)
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
It's funny how drastically different people interpret Biden's actions: Biden was rude or smug yet other's really appreciated his actions of laughing. To me it was expressing how absurd Ryan is... a way of responding with "Can you believe this guy? Do you hear the things that are coming out of his mouth?"... and sometimes you have to laugh in order to reel in a huge amount of anger.
I didn't see it but that doesn't sound like drastically different interpretations to me. It sounds like Bidan was rude/smug/condescending towards Ryan but some wanted him to be rude/smug/condescending because of how they feel about Ryan/Romney.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
Precisely, yovi.
And I'm not saying Ryan didn't act in negative ways either. It's just that in the 15 minutes or so (plus the other odd snatches of time here and there) that I watched and/or listened to the debate I saw more negative behavior (rude, condescending, etc.) from Biden than I did Ryan.
I'm freely able to admit that Romney looks condescending and smarmy (as vison so aptly put it some time ago), but I also see Obama smirk and look smug, too. <shrug>
And I'm not saying Ryan didn't act in negative ways either. It's just that in the 15 minutes or so (plus the other odd snatches of time here and there) that I watched and/or listened to the debate I saw more negative behavior (rude, condescending, etc.) from Biden than I did Ryan.
I'm freely able to admit that Romney looks condescending and smarmy (as vison so aptly put it some time ago), but I also see Obama smirk and look smug, too. <shrug>
Perhaps for some. I'm just glad he didn't sit there and let lies go unchallenged.yovargas wrote:I didn't see it but that doesn't sound like drastically different interpretations to me. It sounds like Bidan was rude/smug/condescending towards Ryan but some wanted him to be rude/smug/condescending because of how they feel about Ryan/Romney.
Yeah, I think they all have that smirk thing available on demand.
This thread just reinforces, to me, again, how the same situation is intrepreted so differently based on... wait for it..... which side you are on. There is no *real* standard for decorum, which someone will hold a speaker to no matter which side they are on.
It's like... well, if my guy was rude, well it's just the goldarn honest truth, it needed to be said. If my guy smirks or laughs derisively and derails good discussions with theatrics, well, so what, really... they are tough "warriors" in "battle". Don't you want a leader who is tough in battle?
If the OTHER guy is rude, well, my guy "lost" the debate because *my guy*, and SOOO not *THEIR guy*, has class and is polite and kind and good to kittens. Don't you want a president who is good to kittens?
And the white hat/black hat can change heads relatively quickly. Along with the interpretations of what happened.
As for hospitals, billing for services is NOT the same as getting paid for services. Hospitals are eating a LOT of bad debt, and the idea that "if you go to the hospital you will get treated" is correct. It's just a little hard on the hospitals.
This thread just reinforces, to me, again, how the same situation is intrepreted so differently based on... wait for it..... which side you are on. There is no *real* standard for decorum, which someone will hold a speaker to no matter which side they are on.
It's like... well, if my guy was rude, well it's just the goldarn honest truth, it needed to be said. If my guy smirks or laughs derisively and derails good discussions with theatrics, well, so what, really... they are tough "warriors" in "battle". Don't you want a leader who is tough in battle?
If the OTHER guy is rude, well, my guy "lost" the debate because *my guy*, and SOOO not *THEIR guy*, has class and is polite and kind and good to kittens. Don't you want a president who is good to kittens?
And the white hat/black hat can change heads relatively quickly. Along with the interpretations of what happened.
As for hospitals, billing for services is NOT the same as getting paid for services. Hospitals are eating a LOT of bad debt, and the idea that "if you go to the hospital you will get treated" is correct. It's just a little hard on the hospitals.
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
- Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
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Speaking of fact checking, here is a thorough, detailed, and even-handed article from Glenn Kessler at the Washington Post, fact-checking the VP debate:
Link
Link
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
- Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
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I don't know, Anthy, President Obama was pretty widely panned by members of both parties for essentially being too polite in the last debate. To the extent that he might now end up losing an election that he all but had sown up before then, unless he can come back in the next too debates and be sufficiently rude and obnoxious.anthriel wrote:Yeah, I think they all have that smirk thing available on demand.
This thread just reinforces, to me, again, how the same situation is intrepreted so differently based on... wait for it..... which side you are on. There is no *real* standard for decorum, which someone will hold a speaker to no matter which side they are on.
It's like... well, if my guy was rude, well it's just the goldarn honest truth, it needed to be said. If my guy smirks or laughs derisively and derails good discussions with theatrics, well, so what, really... they are tough "warriors" in "battle". Don't you want a leader who is tough in battle?
If the OTHER guy is rude, well, my guy "lost" the debate because *my guy*, and SOOO not *THEIR guy*, has class and is polite and kind and good to kittens. Don't you want a president who is good to kittens?
And the white hat/black hat can change heads relatively quickly. Along with the interpretations of what happened.
I'm hoping that he somehow finds a way to walk a middle line where he can come across as "engaged" and as "a fighter" without going to the lengths that Biden went to of constantly interrupting and scornfully laughing and smirking and all of that. But I honestly don't see how he can do that. And, of course (though many people will deny that it is true), he still has the added handicap as an African-American of having to avoid coming across as "the angry black man" (or "racially divisive, as Hannity and the Drudge Report and other conservative media outlets put it on the eve of the first debate).
That's true, and one of the advantages of the Affordable Care Act (and I would guess the main reason the American Hospital Assocation endorsed it) is that much of that bad debt would be eliminated.As for hospitals, billing for services is NOT the same as getting paid for services. Hospitals are eating a LOT of bad debt, and the idea that "if you go to the hospital you will get treated" is correct. It's just a little hard on the hospitals.
But it is also true that many people without insurance avoid going to see doctors because most people don't like to have bills that they can't pay. That's why so many people die unnecessarily because they don't have health care insurance, despite the fact that hospital are obligated to provide emergency care even if they can't pay for it.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Yeah, basically, to "win" the debate in the popular opinion polls you have to be a bigger a-hole than the other guy. Otherwise, you "lose" because you looked "detached" or "weak". And then, on the bloody morning after, that same audience that annointed the bigger a-hole as the winner clinches their pearls and howls about what a-holes the candidates were.Voronwë the Faithful wrote: I don't know, Anthy, President Obama was pretty widely panned by members of both parties for essentially being too polite in the last debate. To the extent that he might now end up losing an election that he all but had sown up before then, unless he can come back in the next too debates and be sufficiently rude and obnoxious.
Pick one, people. Either you want a-holes on the podiums or you don't. If you don't, DON'T REWARD THE A-HOLES BY APPOINTING THEM THE WINNER!
And as for Obama displaying "agression" (aka, being the bigger a-hole), he can't. Or he can, but it's very difficult. Getting away with open displays of emotion are a white man's privilege.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
I don't like anyone being rude, and I am appalled that "winning" has been reduced to "who cares about WHAT they say; I just wanna know who LOOKED tougher."
I do want misstatements, errors and lies countered: firmly and politely.
I think nobody in the universe would want to be in Obama's shoes for the next debate: he does NOT like to attack and interrupt. That is something I like about him (mind you, I have many complaints, too). He is not by nature a rude person. But he can't let Romney play schoolyard bully all over him, either.
I do want misstatements, errors and lies countered: firmly and politely.
I think nobody in the universe would want to be in Obama's shoes for the next debate: he does NOT like to attack and interrupt. That is something I like about him (mind you, I have many complaints, too). He is not by nature a rude person. But he can't let Romney play schoolyard bully all over him, either.
“Wilbur never forgot Charlotte. Although he loved her children and grandchildren dearly, none of the new spiders ever quite took her place in his heart. She was in a class by herself. It is not often that someone comes along who is a true friend and a good writer. Charlotte was both.” E. B. White, who must have had vison in mind. There's a reason why we kept putting the extra i in her name in our minds!
Ah. You're right; when they're in positions of authority, women are expected to be more manly then men (Boeher does get mocked for crying; but he hasn't lost his position). But in normal day to day life, it's different.River wrote:If Nancy Pelosi turned on the water works the way Boehner does, she'd never get re-elected.